CL: Good afternoon to all of you We’re going to have a conversation, the two of us, in front of you. And my job is, first of all, is to give you a little logistics points At about 5.25, we will stop, and at that point, you should not leave your chairs, your benches, and the place where you are, because we will take a giant selfie So, you’ll have to stay where you are, and we will be on that selfie too, we will just turn our back to you and this will be our memorable selfie share with all of you Okay? Alright. So, we are going to discuss, the two of us, the theme that is up there, which is; “The Future of Work.” And clearly we come from a different background. You are an amazing young entrepreneur, you started a few years ago, I started many years ago AZ: Thank you, you’re more experienced CL: Owwhh..you’re really so kind, thank you so much Let me start with the first question that I really, I’m dying to ask you, because have two sons, and one has started his own Startup and the other one wants to start his own Startup What do you think is needed these days for a successful Startup to stay successful? And let me give you one background, a little bit of information If you look at the Top 20 Companies of the Dow Jones 20 years ago, you would’ve found many Oil Companies, quite a few Energy Companies, a few Pharmaceutical Companies as well, but none of the IT Companies that are today… All the big ones, the big names you can think of, now in the Top 20, whereas all these Oil Companies, Energy Companies have disappeared, except for one or two, I think Exxon is still in the Top 20, Pfizer is still in the Top 20, all the others have gone So, because you will be in the Top 20, and you want to stay there as soon as you there AZ: Ameenn… Because in our industry there is a joke; who’s going to last next year? And we as a leader have to understand because it’s like a nightmare, we have paranoia, are we still going to be exist next year? So, we have to do everything we can CL: That’s exactly my point What do you do to be here next year? And the year after? And in 20 years time? AZ: I think the adaptability, because the Startup actually means we, as a company has to adapt to change We have to be as agile as possible as a company to adapt to change, because once your company become big, your company become (more) difficult, it become a dinosaur, and dinosaurs extinct In Startup you cannot do that, we always think that we are still Startup. For example, the first one, the culture; we have a freedom of culture We empower everyone to be a “CEO”. CEO is not like me, but you are a CEO (also), you have to live on your own, you have to do things that make impact If you have idea, let’s execute it, something like that The team empowerment is very very important, we are not bureaucratic, because bureaucratic kills company, that our new credo Because if you become bureaucratic, you will be gone next year, I guarantee that Because it’s very hard to adapt to change, you have to open to new ideas even at the first time when you heard it, you thought it was wrong, but once you executed it, oh it turns out I’m the wrong party, something like that CL: So you empower all the people in the Company to come up with their ideas and to explore their ideas, but not all ideas are great, some of them are dead on arrival, some of them are dead after 6 months, how do you filter what is going to work, and what is not going to work?
AZ: We have kind of metrics, everyone has one. If the one they executed fails, we kill the metric as soon as possible CL: Within what period of time? AZ: I think 6 months. So the idea is to encourage everyone to come up with an idea and then execute it, We open to any ideas because the idea that we execute today maybe obsolete in the next 3 months, because the world is changing very very fast CL: Is that why we get updates on our telephone and applications all the time? AZ: Yeah..something like that CL: The agility that you refer to, does that require that you invest a lot of your budget into innovation? AZ: Innovations produced by people, we invest a lot in people CL: Okay, is that mean if somebody comes up with an idea that is not killed within 6 months will get a big bonus? Or is he going to get additional trainings? Or is he going to have more empowerment to develop his ideas? AZ: Yes, even our salary is a little bit higher than the Oil industry. Because the biggest assets right now actually are the people The people who done the innovations. We also give, for example free lunch and free dinner in the office CL: Okay, who wants to be hired by Zaky? Nobody? No hands up? Ahh there they come Okay, you have a majority of girls actually, yess! How many women do you employ? AZ: We try to do 50:50, but right now the number is around 30:70. But we provide lactation room CL: Okay, I’m going to ask Zaky what he does, because I think that’s a really important point for the Indonesian’s economy, Because many of you know that participation rate of women in the Indonesian economy is much lower than that of men, and eventough there has been progress, you’re still at about 51% So 51% of the women participate in the economy, whereas about 81% of the men participate By choice or by necessity, we don’t know, but that gap is a significant potential growth, well valued contributions for the country, And there are policy that can help to improve those numbers and to offer women the opportunity to join, to become entrepreneur themselves, or to be an employee in a company Now, Zaky I know, has policies in placed, in his company that are very positive, can you explain to us what you do! AZ: Yeah, we provide for example lactation room, and daycare, so the women can put their children in the room where we hire staffs (to babysit), so the women can work and focus And also we promote remote (working environment), if you more convenience working from home whilst raising your kids, it’s okay, we also support that Because with the rapid change of technology, actually the tools are there, we can do Sykpe, we have WhatsApp to call and video call, anytime if you need to communicate So place is not a barrier anymore, and as a mom you can work from home CL: That’s impressive AZ: I think I have to ask you something The topic is; “The Future of Work”, in our field we have this AI, Artificial Intelligence, which said to take over the world, even we invest in AI What kind of jobs do you think will vanish? And how do it will affect Indonesia’s youth? Because Indonesia, as far as I know, we have the largest percentage of youth
We always mentioned about bonus demography, but I’m worried this going to turn up to be disaster demography instead So what do you think? What’s your advice to youth in Indonesia? CL: Well, first of all, I think what you mentioned: Artificial Intelligence, robotics, quantum computing, big data, internet of things, You combine all of that and it’s really transforming and will continue to transform more and more the way which we communicate, We work, we move around, the way we relate to money, and the way we relate maybe our place in society So, for all those reasons we need to be able to constantly adjust, and the point you’ve made about agility I think applies to our brain capacity, is going to rely very much on the professors, the educators, the rectors, the vice rectors, all mothers of the academy community whose passion and mission in life is to prepare all of you to have this agility, this capacity to adjust, this capacity to move from one field to the other, and to understand languages that maybe you, and certainly me, were not born with By that -I mean, there would be new fields that have to be part of the curriculum, and I was asking some of the professors in another institution of high reputation as well as UGM, what is important? And that dean said, “They will all have to be plural lingual.” And I said, what do you mean by plural lingual? Because in my days being plural lingual meant, you speak one, or two, or three languages in addition to your, but he said, “No..no..no…, it is that but also the ability to talk with computers!” The ability to code and to participate in the process, and to be able to not just to load applications, but to write and read in that language So I think the curriculum of today may look a little bit different, and I hope sooner rather than later, and I’m saying that with humility because I’m the daughter of professors And I know how passionate, missionaries, as well as conservative, professors can be But I think that I’ll have to, not all of them, there are few here so I have to be careful But I think that’s a very important component of how you equipped the extraordinary assets that a country like Indonesia has, because I assure you, I think it’s a blessing and it’s called Demography Dividend, but it can also be a curse because if that extraordinary potential is not equipped, suited to adjust to tomorrow’s world, they will fail, not you because I think your brain is already prepared, you have the capacity to adjust to focus into the future, and you probably are this plural lingual individuals that I was talking about But others who do not have the luck that you’ve had to be in a great university, will be disenfranchised, will be lost, will be prey, to funny learning, to funny propaganda, and that is not healthy, and that is not helpful for our society So I think the trainings by universities or schools would be important, but the constant life long training is also going to matter, because as you just said, what is working today, would be change tomorrow, and what has worked for the last 3 or 4 years of your education, which would help you to get the job you want, maybe in 5 years time would not be adequate anymore, so you will have to be constantly be in training throughout your life So be prepared to change job’s position and field of operations, but be prepared also to continuously open your mind to new skills and new tools I think that’s how we can avoid the curse and get the blessing AZ: Can you specify what kind of jobs maybe? Because I understand you have more experience in the world looking in every country, and you have been in Indonesia for 5 days right? How do you see Indonesia? And what are the potentials of Indonesia?
What kind of jobs do you think suited for our youth of tomorrow? CL: What I find extraordinary, first of all, since my last visit to Indonesia almost 20 years ago, the country has changed enormously I know everybody complaints about traffic jam, but it was a lot worst, there were few cars, there were more bicycles, moped, and all the rest, not so much bicycle actually, moped and motorbikes, but the world were not what they are today Yes, continue complaining, continue pushing, and challenging authorities but bear in mind that there has been improvement The penetration of internet, not enough, need to go further, and better coverage, but it’s major improvement and it had changes life, it’ll come to the point that I want to make in the second I think in this stage of development, the country has no issue with power, is something which is also a big plus, and clearly the banking and financial sector is many many times stronger, better, and more resistant to potential shocks, and there are Governance Review and fight against corruption that did not exist 20 years ago, which I hope will continue as they have been initiated recently Now, I have 2 numbers in my mind about Indonesia: one is 17.000, islands; the other one is over 1700, Startups in Indonesia Indonesia is the 4th largest nation when it comes to counting Startups, and this is quite incredible, because given the size, given the spread, given in a way not sufficient internet access yet, it’s amazing that vibrant entrepreneurs your sector has been given a lot as it has So I would say that those are major plusses for the country that I have observed and that I’m very impressed with AZ: Is that mean we as young generation have to running companies or? CL: I don’t think it’s going to be specifically for Indonesia, I think the nature of the work itself is changing, and will change Now you asked me what jobs would there be? I think it’s what work would there be? Rather than what jobs would there be? I think your rector, you were making that point He’s not listening to me, he’s looking at something far more interesting on his iPhone You were making the distinction between jobs and work, and you were saying that people will have a work or occupation not necessarily a job, and I think you’re right because if you to believe studies, whether if you look at the Mckenzie’s study, the Oxford University’s study, all the big accounting firm’s studies, they all say the same thing, in the US for instance constituent is not at least 50% of today’s job will be 30% automated and robotized, if you look at the Oxford University’s study, they will say that 2/3 of the children of today will have a job that has not yet invented The jobs of tomorrow, I can’t tell, I don’t think you can tell, we probably can guess what it will require in terms of frame of mind, ability to adjust, comprehension of a new technological tools, but what exactly would there be? I don’t know When we stopped using candles many decades ago, nobody knew how many people would be employed in the electricity generating power industry, and yet today the numbers are staggering It will be the same in the future, except, in my field that’s a big change compare with century or even decades ago, it would move fast, which is why your point about agility is critically important Let me ask you one thing, I told you that my parents were professors, your parents must have had an occupation, how differently from you where they working? What did you see that make a difference? Between the way you are operate, including in the personal life and your professional life, and the way they operated? AZ: Your parents were professors; my parents were teachers, teacher of SMP (Junior High School)
When in my parents’ era, there were less tools, less choices also, in our era, I think we have so many choices right now, that makes us confuse sometimes We have so many choices, we have so many news, even hoax news, you can choose whatever you want, you can watch any kind of video, from A to Z But the old generation, in my parents’ days, they were always mentioned about commitment For example if my parents want to meet a person, they didn’t had mobile phones, they had agreements, “Hey, let’s meet in this place, at a certain time.” They have to come, they cannot cancel it because they didn’t had mobile phones CL: Do you think that what gave them a stronger sense of contact, the engagement? AZ: Yeah, they were more engaged and committed because they didn’t have a choice But in our generation we have more choices, but somehow less commitment, except the ones who focus on their commitment It’s a flood of information, flood of choices, I think that’s the challenge for our generation and what’s differentiate from my parents’ era and mine My era is challenging because we have so many things CL: Would you agree with me that because of that, it makes education even more important, because from the multiplicity of sources, of information/data/knowledge that are accessible, if we do not have the ability to questions, to doubt, to select, then we are falling prey to anything that comes including fake news, including questionable views AZ: Yes, I think education plays an important role, the Government also have to play a bigger role, because nowadays everyone can do anything they want, we have to select the best one amongst these tools CL: Okay, that’s a really interesting point for me, I’ll tell you why. Because I was the member of the Government and I was in the policy-making business, and prior to that time I was in private practice, I was a businessperson And when I was a Minister of Finance, many entrepreneurs would come to me and say, “Don’t do policy, don’t do anything stay out of my way, and let me operate the way I want.” I find it extraordinary and welcome that somebody as successful as you, as innovative as you, would say; “Well, we actually need the government to do certain things.” So what would you give them as priority? Not necessarily the Indonesian government but any government in a country where you operate, what do you need them to do? AZ: I think to kill the unimportant ones (laugh) because there are so many of them, if you look at the news, the tools, so many tools that right now you can’t use, the government should kill these ones that are not important and not useful for everyone, filtering and screening CL: Filtering and screening what is fake and what is not right? Or to identify what are going to be most useful for the development of the country? AZ: Yes, find the most useful and promote them to everyone, something like that CL: And then we let everything else, but at least they can identify the priority? AZ: Yes CL: Okay. Alright, if ever I become a policy maker again, I’ll know what to do, so thank you I want to ask you something because I’m concerned about my children My children are about your age, a little bit older actually, and I fear that because they watch people like you, they watch Elon Musk, successful entrepreneurs,
I fear that they will assume and regard as their inspirations and their role models, people who succeed very quickly, make money next to no time, around 2 or 3 years after Starting Up become millionaires What’s your take on that? What should I tell them? Because I think it’s probably wrong AZ: When I was developing BukaLapak, it’s about 8 years ago, 2010, I’m focusing on the impact When I was launching Bukalapak, what is the impact of Bukalapak, even at that time we had no money, we don’t have the characteristics of successful company; we don’t have any money, I don’t have MBA in Harvard, (laughter) CL: Tell us where you went to school! He could’ve gone to UGM AZ: I don’t have any experience, my parents were teachers. So I have the characteristics of a not successful company, at that time CL: A question, did they support you? Did they say, okay try, go ahead! Or did they say, you should’ve be a teacher as well AZ: At the first time, I didn’t let them know CL: So you started behind their back? AZ: Yeah, I think they found it out after 4 years when they saw me on TV CL: So then they found out? AZ: Yes, they found out, oh you’re running a company, that’s okay as long as you make money But my point is, don’t focus on money. Money is not everything, it’s just a tool We have to focus on the impact after, of what you do, you have to focus also on personal development, and to have passion maybe What are you looking for? You have to know that, I think. You have to know what you’re looking for If you’re looking for money, when you already got the money then you’ll feel useless, because you already got the money, and then what? And I believe for UGM’s students are easy to get money I think it’s easy for them to get a job that they want, but you guys have to be grateful because only 1% of Indonesians can go to universities So, look for your purpose, and meaning is more important I think. Then the money will come CL: How did you identify your passion? And what was your driving force? Couldn’t that have been your parents? AZ: I think it’s your experience since you were born, your personal experience, or it might be passion or purpose I myself was born in Solo, it’s a bit suburban where everyone are doing small business (SMEs), and I saw they all have the same condition, from when I was a kid until now, if I went to see them now, their condition is the same, their revenue also still the same. So, it becomes a personal mission for me to help them, to empower them, to double their revenue with technologies, so it become my passion, related from my historical background CL: Do you think that’s very Indonesian? Indonesia is a nation, and there is a strong feeling and sense that it is a nation despite the fact that you have 17.000 islands,
so this passion of empowering people, of helping them move up, is this something that is shared by young Indonesians? AZ: I think so, we have a special culture, especially Javanese. In Javanese if you don’t help people, you feel as a failure, it’s not about the money It’s very personal I think if we work hard, based on passion, you wouldn’t feel stressful, you’ll be happy. It’s like when you have a hobby such as play the guitar, or play football, something like that, passion, because we do it from our heart CL: So in a way you disrupt their business? AZ: Not disrupt it, I think disruption is a wrong term, disruption happened because of inefficiency, so if we have efficient solution, I think everyone will be happy CL: So you improve their business? AZ: Yes, improve not disrupt CL: I can just imagine that share this meeting with big bank, which is announcing that the dividend were reduced by 20% but that’s an improvement of the business I think you’re right by the way, I think you’re absolutely right, but they’ll have a bit of a time to convey that message, you’re completely right AZ: I want to ask you a question, so we have a foreign investment in Bukalapak, this investment really depends on the macroeconomics, our worry as the founders is when the bubble come It worries us if it comes, what do you think? Is it going to come or is it late, taking a long time? And how does it will affect the world especially Indonesia? CL: Well I think the reason we are all apprehensive about the bubble is, the 2008 financial crisis, the big recession, which came as a major crisis in lots of markets around the world The situation now is completely different, the fundamentals of the economy are stronger, the financial and the banking sector is certainly much reinforced with better capital ratio, better supervision, and better regulation as well, we are back now to a normal growth of about 3,9% as we focused it, which is pretty much the average that we had prior to the financial crisis of the 2008 The only thing that change is, not in a positive way, a lot of corporates more in debts than there were in those days, I think that’s an area where we need to watch, and we’re obviously monitoring policies, financially tightening, will matter and for which policy-maker has to be equipped in responding case of sort But we will see market adjustment, there will be corrections because it’s the nature of the game, trees don’t grow to the sky, and we should expect that, we have seen it few weeks ago, the market are functioning properly, financing is massively available and still to this day, and the fundamentals of the economies are strong, so, market correction there will be but we are in a massively different situation than when we were back in a time of crisis I want to address you one thing, you said that you invest in Artificial Intelligence, and we have, at the IMF, we tried to anticipate issues, and we believe that issue of data, protection of data, sharing of data, access to data, lending of data, is certainly an intangible value that need to be better explored and better understood First of all, how do you deal with big data? And do you believe that some of the pioneer,
the Googles of this world had such a dominant position that essentially..case is closed and big data are going to be in the hand of few companies, and they would be able to give and restrict access as they wish? AZ: First of all, we believe in big data and the value of it because right now we’ve collected so many data, and we studied the data to improve customer experience but with the trend of cloud computing, everyone move, for example to Amazon, Google, or Alibaba, and this trend is really interesting because everyone gives their data That’s why I think the government role here is very important, more important in technology, because they have to control it because someone can abuse or hack these data, for example the bitcoin case in Japan, which was hacked. And it’s easier for, say, terrorists to get money So data sovereignty is inevitable, it is very very important for every country to control the data, they also need to analyze the data to have better policy, the AI or the big data itself should be in the government’s hand, of course the government must be competent, because the problem right now is chicken and egg, right. If we give data to the government, sometimes we worry it will be shared with everyone, but if we have a competent government, we can trust them The concept of a state, everyone give right to the state, everyone give data to the state, and the state take control, the competent state. I think that’s the future of big data CL: So the policy-maker, the government have to be involved? AZ: I think so CL: Our impression is, it’s not just our government, it has to be cooperation amongst government, so it’s a shared framework AZ: Yeah I think the cue word is: Supportive Government. Government sometimes control but they are not supportive enough Sometimes they are very bureaucratic, it takes a long time to process anything, so if we have a clean government, competent government, really fast, I think that’s very helpful for the players like us, or you guys someday if you have a company or working in one CL: There are governments actually which are moving the direction of adopting digital government, and certainly we have a membership of 189 countries and there are several countries where the entire government officials are digital Estonia for instance, Israel is another case, but Estonia is 100% digital AZ: I heard that we could be the members of the country? CL: Yes yes that’s right, that’s absolutely right, you can become a national Estonian and you can apply and be sort of “digitally Estonian”, that’s true I was discussing that with the former President of Estonia, the one who launched that, he saw the future, he was very visionary, by the way, I asked him, “Why did you came up with this idea that a government should be digital?” and he said, “Because when I was 14, I had a math professor, and that math professor was passionate about computer” And although they didn’t have a lot of money those days in Estonia, the math professor was inviting passionate students in a little warehouse where they had 3 or 4 computers, the old ones that you have never seen in your life, and they were coding and working and using FORTRAN, an old language that you have not heard of, maybe you have? Yes? See the professor have heard, and they remember, and I do too
“when things happen, change, business is conducted, everybody has access to it. And as a result of that, corruptions has gone down to the ground.” COBOL? Absolutely So because he was completely taken by this when he was 14, he remembered that you can actually really change the way which you conducted business, Not to say that it is perfect, nobody is perfect, and no country is perfect either, but it took massive inducement to proper governance, proper behavior, and fight against corruption I said, “Okay well I’m not the president of the country, we need to include those tools, we need to use them. “ And I was asking him, “How much did it cost you?” And the new President who’s just been elected because he has just retired said, “Ohh don’t ask him, he won’t tell you, but I can tell you”, and it was 5% of GDP, so that’s a significant investment for a period of time And I asked him, “What’s the outcome of doing that?” He said, “First of all, everything is transparent and available. So when we have tender, when we have procurement, when we have tax audit, “ So digital can be good in policy-making as well AZ: Yeah, I think it’s true, but the challenge usually; the government is not ready because they lead by sorry to say, old generation, they have to hire young generation, especially the young engineers, they have to be smarter than the players (companies) because they are the referee, so the player cannot be smarter than them. They must invite and invest in these talents to control the players What do you think of bitcoin? CL: See, the Master of Ceremony is looking at me saying; “Stop stop stop stop!” What I think of it? I’ll tell you in a nutshell, I think it’s very innovative technology that is being used, distributed technology, and that would be use in multiple area not just about the creation and transaction basis on new currency, I think the fight is that, this currency is not transparent, cover up all sorts of very strange trade, is a big alert to us that they should be a regular in framework, they should be enough control so that this innovation is not conducive to money laundry, financing of terrorism, financing of dark trade Most of you have heard about Alphabet right? The holding of Google How many of you have heard about Alphabay? Wow, I’m impressed. I’m really impressed because that was a very dark trade that has been eventually defeated by long standing discreet US investigation And they manage to actually kill very illegal trading that was operating in the dark web, and were clearly the currency of it, their favorite was bitcoin I think we shouldn’t kill innovation, we shouldn’t condemn, we shouldn’t said that they are here to go but I think we should really understand the complexity of it, the danger that it can pull I want to ask you last questions before the Master Ceremony stops me, because he looks more and more annoyed with me Because everybody is interested in jobs, what would be your conditions and the qualifications that you expect from any of those smart students before you decide to hire them? AZ: There are 2 dimensions, the first one and the most important is: attitude Attitude for learning, you have to be humble to learn because it’s a kind of paradox of smart people, smart people usually arrogant, it’s hard being humble but I think that’s the most important skill, especially in my company, usually the one who perform, the one who progress is the one who humble
And the attitude is the key to learn from anyone, even from driver, well everyone basically So that’s the first important trait, and the second is: hard skill, such as coding, the logic, analytical thinking, communication, etc., that’s what I call hard skills, but the most important is attitude for learning CL: Attitude, humility, curiosity, always willing to open your mind AZ: Like we have mentioned before, the world is changing really fast, I don’t even know what Snapchat is, some of you might’ve use it, my generation don’t use it If I asked the user of Snapchat of why are they using it? They said because it’s new We the older generations just don’t understand the function of it So the attitude to learn is very important to adapt to change, which is one of our culture also, to adapt to change CL: I think that’s a great way to close our conversation. Now, Master of Ceremony, am I allowed to announce our Instagram contact? Or you will do that? MC: The time is up mam, we are now about to start the Questions & Answers session. So thank you, and sorry to interrupt you earlier And now I would like to give the opportunities to the audience to ask some questions to Madame Lagarde and also Mr. Achmad Zaky, and if you have any question please line up behind the microphone Audience: Thank you very much for the opportunity, my name is Diodre, I’m from the International Relations of Universitas Gajahmada, and as we all know that we are now currently in the fourth era of revolution, whereas we have this endless possibilities, and as discussed in the discussion, education become a very critical point to prepare us for this era however soft skills and attitude are also important, so my question is: Do you think that the current education both formal and informal is efficient to meet the demand of this fast era? And what is the specific transformation needed? And with what can we accommodate ourselves, especially in the productive age to prepare for the future? Thank you CL: First of all I cannot answer for Indonesia specifically because I don’t know the education system worthy enough to pass judgments, but I think in many many countries, the education system is trying to catch up and is trying to cope with what they perceived as a gap in preparing students for the world as it is changing Some of us not having the right MBA, look at Zaky, he did not get to Harvard’s MBA, and it did not stop him from being extremely successful So, the ability to adjust, the skills that Zaky had mentioned, whether it be coding, statistics, psychology, that’s what I’ve heard many of universities’ Deans or Presidents recently tell me that those were the three of the focuses they were asked to be included in the curriculum by the business they oppose, whether it be the Startup companies or logic companies that want to compete with the Startups So if you go to some of the big ivy league US universities they will tell you that that any field that they teach which is usually the passionate students,
whether they teach music, whether it is theatre, whether it is literature, whether it is history, whether it is math, is always associated with digital learning, coding, it’s become another language that is require So that what I can offer, but I would not discount the ability that each of us have, to access knowledge, to access education, I’ll give you the example of the IMF: we provide technical training on the net, we use MOOC, it’s available and we have team up with good number of universities, but if you’re an official from the government, you can become qualified in public finance management by taking our classes and our curriculum online, without moving to Washington or seating in a classroom, yet have the same quality of teaching and same attention by the trainers as if you were seating in the classroom, and that applies across all field AZ: From me I think I want to point out the Entrepreneurship, Madame, it can be learn, at least with trial and error There is a gap in Indonesia, for example it’s very hard to pass the test to enter UGM/ITB, it’s only 1% of the Indonesian, but Indonesia have so many talented young people, but the problem is when they graduated, there are no jobs, no industry to admit them We have very limited industry, I mean core industry, our industry either: Agriculture, Banking, Mining, something like that We don’t’ have Technology, Research Science, Industry like Germany or US That’s the job of entrepreneur, I encourage you to be entrepreneur to built our industry, we urgently need them, and by that I meant we have to create a big, giant industry