Journey Home – 2012-07-02 – Former Episcopal Clergy – Taylor Marshall

good evening and welcome to the journey home my name is Marcus Grodi your host for this program this is a episode of the journey home in which I invite a former guest to to give us an update on on his journey now that he’s been in the church for a number of years take a few more emails and focus on some of the other issues that we didn’t encounter during our original program Taylor Marshall is a former Episcopal clergyman and his website Taylor Marshall comm will connect you with his blog he’s an author of the Crucified rabbi and also the Catholic perspective on Paul that’s great as you near to books and so I encourage that and of course the beauty of books like that or they reflect the the movement from a non Catholic to a Catholic position so it’s good to have you back on the program it’s good to be back here having me it’s been how many years it’s been about five and a half years yep yeah I’ve been in the church six years so all right so you you were on the program not long it yeah that’s right I remember I was Brandt brand new in the church yeah not obviously hesitant to do that on the aerial is good real bad yeah I’ll get somebody seasoned that’s right to make sure yeah there are six months you come into the church and you’re pretty pepped up and excited and so you got me right there in the fresh fresh well in a moment I’m going to ask you to review your journey but I’ve often said I think on the program probably more often than I should and that is that becoming a Catholic is a bit like becoming a Frenchman that you could you go through the process of becoming a Frenchman maybe in a year but it might be a long time before a Frenchman mistakes you for it that’s a lifelong friendship and well that’s kind of truth becoming a catalunya to discover not only all the beauties of the church but to work through some of the baggage you bring with you that they might be blind to that’s right absolutely all right but first since your returning guest if you would give us a summary of how the Lord opened your heart to the church well you know I was not raised in any tradition and I had a good childhood friend who was a Lutheran and by Spang and I at their house and going church I was exposed to basic tenets of Christianity and not till really I was towards high school I had a conversion experience and shortly thereafter felt this call to be a pastor or minister of some sort but I didn’t know which seminary or which route to go my that point I probably didn’t know much of difference between a Baptist or Lutheran or Methodist or even Catholic and so through college I was just I was studying and reading and reading the scriptures a lot and studying theology of different stripes and initially was attracted to Calvinism and present read morals I learned more about church history liturgy and the right fit at that time seemed to be anglicanism to be Episcopalian you sort of had what I thought to be the best of both worlds you had kind of liturgical life a sacramental life and then some of the products and distinctives as well that I valued and so I pursued that way and became an Episcopal priest in Fort Worth Texas and but along the way and especially in seminary you know during that time john paul ii died and i had this reaction that even though i never been in the same room or even the same city with john paul ii just a feeling of his impact in the world even an emotional impact modely enough and my wife too and we were planning to go to Venice for our fifth anniversary we started go to Rome instead and in Rome just many miraculous things happened we were able to go to Mass with the Holy Father Pope Benedict and to see out of the you know beautiful shrine and to meet a cardinal who really pushed me towards getting back to Texas and talking to Bishop van and a Fort Worth about coming into the church and they give me a rosary from from the Pope and and all those experiences sort of came together like a Transfiguration moment and so when I got back I went to Bishop vans rectory and knocked on the door and he wasn’t there and I said I’ve got to meet with him right now I mean I was so pumped up after coming back from Rome and so I had a letter in my pocket so give this to Bishop van as soon as he

gets back in town and a couple days later at 9:00 p.m. they should ban called and said come down right now so I went to the roof to his a rectory and sat there in the parlor and I literally just wept and I said I want to receive the Eucharist in union with the Holy Father it’s it really is the pearl of great price that’s all I want and give up job insurance whatever have has to be now and should ban said well you know it’s work on this I really want to pray that happens soon it’s really sad and afraid a novena to st. st. Jude and nine days later I was able to get a job and and transfer out so bishop van received my wife joy and then our three kids and then we moved up to DC and was working at the Catholic Information Center and that’s that was a transition what was that when your father CJ was there was that father Stetson yeah yeah yeah post Edson just arrived there and the reason I mentioned that because both bishop van and father Stetson are key it’s right what’s the word you know playing operators operators for helping men and women into the church and both got very well and both with us just companions especially so this it was a wonderful I mean it was just providential that I fell into that Network yeah and so spent a year in DC you know working some of the pastoral provision and working at the Catholic Information Center there that’s what I was going to show the first time and then just meeting a bunch of great people and meeting dr. Scott Hahn and others just encouraging me to continue to perceive academia so after that year was up we went back to Dallas and I started a PhD in last year and in philosophy and Thomas Aquinas room very good so that kind of brings us well today and now you’re probably 90 and I just took a position as the Dean of the college of st. Thomas More which was found in the 80s and there were sort of taking it in a new direction and as Dean have rewritten the curriculum it’s kind of a Scholastic toe mystic emphasis in theology and philosophy kind of following that that tradition of tome ism so it’s very exciting and you know we have literature in history as well and it’s in Fort Worth and we just we just legally changed the name it was the call to st Thomas More it’s now the College of st John Fisher and Thomas Moore because there’s two other Thomas More’s in the United States so we wanted to make sure that we’re distinct and that’s very exciting so that’s that’s brand-new well that’s exciting we’ve had several faculty members of that school on the journey over the years so it’s good because I know that as you’d mentioned that’s under bishop van yeah very supportive so you’re going to have a Catholic witness mm-hmm oh yeah Coderre Moses I work with Gilliam has every day confession every day Eucharistic Adoration benediction full package when you look back on your journey if you were to pick out one thing that was one of the most significant reasons that open your heart to the Catholic Church what would it be hmm you know six six years ago I probably would have said authority as a Anglican clergyman especially doing with pro-life issues I didn’t have a Magisterium to appeal to and so I think that the mechanism that the Holy Spirit used to pull us into the church was that issue authority but let me let me get back because I would think your average even Episcopalian though let’s say average Protestant would think that Anglicans Episcopalians have a really strong hierarchical authoritative structure well I guess in us in a way they do perhaps not for the best reasons but you know as you know let’s just say that you know go back in time Anglican clergyman I’m sitting across the table someone and they say you know I speak you mentioned abortion in your homily that made me feel uncomfortable and I would say why is that well I think a woman has a right to choose and all that and I say well I could quote quote scripture and I could use rational arguments about when life begins and whatnot but after I say all that the person can just say well any physical Church we allow it in fact your insurance policy allows it you know and then what you know I can’t say well the Holy Father says I can’t say well let’s look at this encyclical or let’s open up the Catechism none of that’s available you know so it’s really just your opinion where’s my opinion that was very frustrating I was bumping into that as a brand-new core Gmail’s bumping into that a lot you know even with marriage prep you know these things come up and you have no authority you know if you’re really smart you can convince people but

that’s just because you’re really smart as long as you’re under the authority of the church and so I realized pretty quickly I need a rock I need the Magisterium yeah I remember when we had a bishop the former Bishop of London father Bishop Graham Leonard yes I minored early on the journey on program and his reasoning was that even as a bishop he recognized you know what was the authority on the issue of ordination of women or you know the ordination of homosexuals these issues where’s the authority where’s it lie and for him to realize it was becoming democratic the gathering of bishops right voting on doctrine voting on doc voting on issues yes so you couldn’t even really push back to the early days of the church which often was the Anglican argument the early councils right these issues were not covered the early councils so how do you decide yeah it’s problem yeah what was the biggest barrier for you and your wife what came in with you right yes she we came out on the same day we’re very blessed to be lockstep on that you know a lot of people the biggest issue is our Lady and the Blessed Virgin for from wasn’t you know we were praying the rosary as Anglicans already and so I was actually attracted to that aspect of Catholicism the biggest holdup for me was the question of ordination what’s my identity you know since adolescence I felt this calling to to be cleric and I finally find the true church and the true church has celibate priest and so how does that fit and early on you know working with Bishop van and Stetson and other bishops I had opportunities to move forward in that it was discerning that in fact I think the first time was on the show I was actively praying and looking about that you were assuming that was the trajection yeah trajectory yes and as time went on and and my wife and I prayed and we talked in Hoorn the experience of other married priests and also just reading some of there’s some really good books you know Ignatius has a book the Apostolic origins of celibacy by Jeanne Kachina yeah great book there’s a there’s a couple other ones too and reading those book and seeing how prevalent celibacy was in the early church you know I need you you know if if you just read the New Testament Paul Timothy Titus Luke Mark you know you just go through through all of those all those named James go through all those inter celibates write it early on there’s and then you look at the next generation Polycarp right Ignatius celibates and you keep going celibate celibates so early on there was this pattern that’s apostolic you know it’s not just medieval it’s not just pragmatic there’s something mystical spiritual and theological about it and you know as I prayed about that and there’s a number of things you know when I was in DC I got to know you know father Stetsons a member of Opus Dei right and you know it’s reading some of st. Josemaria and just realizing that sanctity is not necessarily clerical right you don’t have to be ordained or even in order to be a great saint st Thomas More is a great example of that and that that was that was actually pretty big from because you know used to be a minister as well you know you think of how do I serve the Lord preaching baptism you know sacrament that’s how I serve the Lord and then you go into this new paradigm or how do I serve the Lord it doesn’t include those things you know so you have to rethink what does it mean to serve the Lord how do I become a saint what is sanctity and so that was helpful and then also I got to know a lot of Franciscans you know CFR’s and for insistence of the immaculate and I really have even home automa stand that’s you know I studied Thomas I I do have a love for the Franciscans for their devotional you know piety and you know st. Francis they tried to are damn a priest and he wouldn’t let it happen right he wasn’t worthy so you think about st. Francis I mean here’s probably one of the most holy persons in the history of mankind you know top ten easily and he wasn’t worthy to be a priest Who am I to think that I’m I can bring all these gifts of preaching or whatever liturgy to the church if even Saint Francis has a humility where he doesn’t feel worthy and you know those were things that gave me pause and then just you know learning you know other difficulties that were there he would seem that in our work in the coming home network that’s what we do we help men and women on this transition from lives of ministry yes into the church mm-hmm

sometimes were confronted with people that say I would come into the church tomorrow and if the church would ordain me yeah and our answer is you’re not ready to come in yet yeah would you agree with head literally no absolutely you know I’m still a baby Catholic I’ve only been in six years I mean I imagined you know from care if I can’t want to get in six years would be oh you know much more but yeah you know st. Paul you know don’t lay hands on anyone hastily you know st. Paul says neophytes those new in the church should not be ordained I mean scripturally I’d read a lot of theology and a lot of Paulo Jetix that persuaded me to come in the church but like your analogy with the Frenchman there’s a culture and there’s traditions and you know you can’t learn that in a book you know even how you relate with priests and you know preparing your children for the sacraments that all these layers you know that you know now we’re starting to you know look into conformation there’s all these layers that that I never imagined were there and it just takes time yeah you know it’s only experience that you can get them and I can’t imagine you know going from being any kind of Protestant clergyman to the next day being a Catholic priest and having not experienced that that lived a tradition yeah well one of the biggest differences is amongst our non Catholic brothers and sisters I was brought up Lutheran later spent time with the congregation and then as a Presbyterian pastor the way you understand God’s call and how he speaks to you what he’s calling you to do and how you know that’s of God or or is it just me or something I ate or just the opinions of people around right how you discern that and know you’re being Lutheran’s and Presbyterians and Baptists and Anglicans have a different way of understanding how do you know you’re called yes and that is radically different than Catholic understanding a vocation they’re similar but there’s big differences so when when you as an Anglican clergyman back when you were on the program had come into the church and we’re still discerning the priesthood in many ways you were still even though you were Catholic would I be correct in saying in many ways you were still thinking like an Anglican oh absolutely yeah absolutely it takes you know you know I can’t Thomas says we operate habitually what we do we have habits right the good habits or vices if they’re bad habits I mean if they’re good habits or virtues of their bad habits they’re our vices and it takes a long time to to mould those and you know just because you come of the church and you’re confirmed doesn’t mean that you get a total transformation that every the way you think is perfectly Catholic I mean you just read st. Paul and the epistles in the New Testament and he’s writing and these people still have either a wrong understanding of Judaism that they’re applying to their to their Christianity to their Catholicism or they have elements of paganism that they’re applying to their newfound Christianity and Paul’s having to deal with this constantly and it’s the same today you know it’s true that you know it might not be as radical from coming from worshiping Zeus to becoming a Catholic but you know even as a Protestant there are a lot of prejudices and then habits even in the way you pray the way you read the scriptures that take time to transform as a Catholic sanctity is is progressive it’s not an instant pill and so it’s going to take time as a Catholic yeah I probably the biggest decision in the Reformation that made the biggest distinction was Luther’s rejection of the church as a necessary channel of salvation that all of a sudden became individuals in independence independence hearing God’s call rather than as a part of the family that was the biggest change yes and then from that came everything else but that’s a big issue and I think understanding your calling the difference between ordination are big issues but now okay you’ve been in six years in the church talk about as you see yourself now as a layman as an academic layman is this all right I’ll accept it as if it’s a booby prize yeah or have you grown to recognize it really is a great gift to be a Catholic layman with the with the opportunities we have to serve oh yeah I mean there’s there’s you know especially in the family you know I think before being an administrator position there was that tug and pull and there’s tugs and pulls with family and whatever you do whatever

your view in your business but just embracing you know I’m going to get to heaven if what I do and how I pray helps joy get to heaven and vice-versa and the kids you know that’s I’ll be judged on my duties you know and I’m in this mysterious great sacrament called matrimony and that’s primarily you know I never really thought of matrimony as a means by which grace comes to me right it is a sacrament it’s still operative God is still giving grace through this that’s really I mean that’s that’s a powerful thing that’s something that I’ve come to learn and and come to appreciate and to love and then also you know just because you’re not in a pulpit doesn’t mean that you don’t get to share your faith and help people I mean there’s writing there’s conversation there’s teaching and you know high school courses or college courses there’s having shows like this blogs speaking conferences I mean there’s there’s so many opportunities you know you may not be conflicting the sacrament at the altar which is reserved for the priest but there’s still means of which you can encourage people you know I mean I’ve emails I mean honestly there’s not enough time today to do all the things that you could do as a layman and encouraging people and helping people in writing a book that that we are going to be using to help men and women on the journey musically you think about evangelizing you want the Catechism of course you want to deal with doctrine and apologetics you want to clear up misunderstandings but I think particularly for the clergy a book that we are recommending which I have found to be just a powerful book is a book by a former post on the journey home probe I mean excuse me on EWTN and that’s father Thomas Dube Congress’s soul he has many great books which I strongly recommend any of father do BAE’s books as well as his program here on EWTN but he wrote a book called happy are the poor mm which is one of the best books challenging us on simplicity and detachment but the reason I particularly recommend this book for those on the journey is to understand the Catholic understanding of simplicity and when you read that and you and become challenged by that then you become to even see it a level the importance of celibacy for the priesthood yes if you are to live out your vocation as a husband a father it’s difficult to live that out and in the priesthood because the demands of the priesthood and even it challenges priests we have not taken in fact right the real call of simplicity that is inherent in their call to the priesthood we all can slowly get drawn into the values of our culture right and it’s right yeah I mean celibacy isn’t just more time to smoke cigars and drink martinis I mean I mean we’ve found a wonderful parish and you know they have they offered confession 20 hours a week you know if you were married you couldn’t do that you know 20 hours of yeah that’s a lot that does not just out thirty minutes on Saturday night that’s you know all my appointment or my appointment right this is serious commitment you know two masses a day and I mean yeah possible I mean it’s it’s serious I mean I one things I saw is to be a great priest you know if I want to be something I want to do it well I don’t want it to be a great priest would mean to sacrifice my family to really give it in the humble that you know in your in your homilies and and you know marriage prep and all those categories I mean to really go full out it’s going to be like st. Paul yeah you know yeah yeah let’s take a break now I’ve got a couple other questions but I think if I got into them I might just and beyond our need to take a break let’s take a break and when we come back I would like you to talk a little bit about Our Lady because you said that in one hand she wasn’t a big barrier for you into the church but as we look now five or six years beyond have you come to discover even more of the importance of her not says our mother of course in faith but a key place in salvation salvation history let’s talk about that wicked Maxine

welcome back to the journey home our guest tonight is taylor marshall former episcopal clergyman and now serving as the Dean of and that’s not just Thomas Wolfe st. John Fisher and st. John Fisher kind of called Fisher more college for congressional or camp great great well Fisher is such a great hero sane and too often forgotten because we’re always thinking about Thomas Moore they made all the movies about Thomas Moore but Fisher was such a holy man at the time yeah the only Cardinal be marked to be martyred yeah yeah yeah such a holy mater mentioned before the break talk a bit more about our Lady because I do think that our understanding of Mary for many converts it’s it’s something that has to grow because we’re dealing with baggage yeah as lots of baggage can you even the whole baggage of the community Saints understanding that and prayer life but also understanding her significant role in Salvation history yeah you know I think one of the mistakes that Protestants make when they look at it what causes their alarm is they say well we should love and worship our Lord right Christ everything must be Christ centered right and am i both the Catholic respective on Paul I hone in that almost every difficulty that process and type of Catholicism is based on a zero-sum model so they believe like if you got a pie and they would be okay who gets the pie Christ gets the whole pie so if you take a slice out and that’s Mary taking something from Christ Saints Mass Pope you know then pretty soon it looks to them like Christ just has one little sliver of the pie and you’ve done dishonor to him so they reject that but Catholicism doesn’t look at it that way Catholicism looks at it in terms of participation so you have Christ and then everything below that participates in Christ he is the head nor the body it’s very Pauline and this is how Paul sees everything all the sacraments help us to participate in Christ and and that’s especially true with our lady you know our lady you know Christ came to us through our lady and many Popes have said we go to Christ through our lady right no his Humanity is known to us through her and even his crucifixion we look at the him on the cross who’s standing there Mary Our Lady and you know when I came to the church I had devotion to Our Lady you know I knew she was the mother of Christ the mother of God I knew that she was a virgin you know and I believe the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption but I still think there was more of an intellectual perception of it and over time it enters more into your heart you know where when when something really bad happens you know you’ve turned to your mother you know and I think over time you have to see the church as a family and church is just is an institution or a building it is a family and as you come to know God our Father as you come to know our Lord you also come to know our Lady and there’s a certain you know as you know there’s no way you can explain it you know it actually takes a lot of time praying the rosary and praying the rosary isn’t just saying prayers over and over the fruit of the Rosary is meditating on the mysteries of our Lord’s life and you know praying the rosary every day you’re going through those mysteries and those mysteries just get deeper and deeper and deeper into your heart you know and our lady is right there the whole time you know it’s just and she’s always pointing you to her son do what he says do what he says and there’s just something very beautiful and very subtle and I find that you know and now I know that we’re raising you know children in a Catholic you know we’ll be with our family or Austin and let us pray and they’ll go into a Hail Mary that’s kind of but there’s just this naturalness about it and you know I think also you know I saw the Passion of the Christ for the first time and seeing his sufferings through the eyes of a mother helps you appreciate those sufferings especially as a parent you know seeing it through her eyes you know I remember that zero-sum thinking probably the argument that I may have used when I was on my own journey resisting yes open to the Catholic Church another layer I think for me was that I had a devotion to our Lord Jesus for many many years before all the Catholic children mm-hmm that wasn’t something new I discovered I

became Catholic no I loved our Lord Jesus but I also knew down deep that that I needed to be closer to him I need to make more effort to be closer to him a better use of my time and my devotional time and and so I think in my mind there was so much more I needed in my devotion to our Lord Jesus with only X amount of time it I wasn’t convinced that by taking some of that time and focusing on artal Our Lady that that was going to help me accomplish the goal that I needed right of focusing more on Christ but I think that again comes out of the old biomen perfection of individualism it’s it’s me getting closer to Jesus rather than as baptized Christians we’re a part of a family even in our private moments it isn’t just made Jesus we’re part of a family and it’s discovering what the communion of saints authentically means no matter where you are so that in getting closer to our Lord we are never doing it alone we are always doing it with one another there are prayers for one another but particularly the presidency of the saints and Our Lady yeah I mean if I wanted to get to know you really intimately if I had dinner with your mother I would hear stories and learn things about you that you you know that might take a long time to learn from you because mothers have an intimate knowledge of their sons right and they always want people to know their sons and in Our Lady you know it’s not that she’s just an abstraction you know she really is actively helping us to know her son and I think you know that’s the thing that we’ve learned and then you know in the evening rosary as a family is a whole nother layer to praying it together the conversations that come up knowing the mysteries and so you know sometimes just insights on scriptural passages come while praying the rosary you know it’s like a Bible study per se but you know I’ll talk well word you and I just I was thinking and the rosary just came to me I just really made that connection oh wow you know that’s because there’s grace is there and you’re asking her to come alongside you and lead you to Jesus got an email Jerry from from the Northwest writes I’ve been doing some serious studying and praying this past year about whether God is leading me to the Catholic faith I’m a pastor though and love my work most importantly however I’m afraid for how becoming Catholic might impact my wife and teenage children so much of their identity is wrapped up in my work as a pastor but should I do your thoughts on Wow well I think our Lord’s calling me to the Catholic faith right and calling your wife and your children and none of none of this can be accomplished through natural means you know our Lord says apart from me you could do nothing he doesn’t say apart for me you can do a few things part for me you can do nothing so this means that we have to pray and ask for grace you know process are always afraid of being Pelagian you know all works but we really do have to ask our Lord to provide an amazing amount of Grace’s for the conversion of our spouses children family friends and you know the best way to do that is to pray you know and to use the means of grace that are available pray the rosary first thing I would say pray the rosary you know maybe fast some right pray get serious realize you know like at the wedding of Cana Lord we have no wine oh I got to your water you know I can’t make this happen and just ask for the supernatural you know I it’s I always get nervous when these kind of things happen to my life you know it might not be as big as as Jerry situation but you pray and amazing thing happened right at the last moment you know with so many things you know business personal family marriage children asked for the graces I mean he want he wants you to become holy he wants you to become Catholic he wants your wife to be a saint children would be saying auntie art has a plan mapped out yeah this again this is a question that we deal with there in the coming whole network all the time and we don’t want to take this issue flippantly however if you look in the scriptures in nearly every single case when somebody discovered the beauty of Jesus that required them leaving what they were to follow him it may not have been covered in detail in the account

itself but if you if you prayerfully consider every single case you’re going to find people who what they were in their previous environment had to be set aside Matthew the tax collector okay maybe for him he got free from giving up a quote bad career right but Paul was a Pharisee yeah and a rabbi to have a set aside it says in Acts chapter 6 that many of the priests became Christians yeah what did they give up or what about the people that were blind or lame who made their living through begging and everyone the community felt a responsibility to take care of them because that’s how they’re all now they’re healed well not were they going to do they can’t fake it yes so lives change in conversion it’s not merely intellectual change just our whole lives yeah and that’s what you had to go through yourself and our Lord is the Good Shepherd he knows your situation he knows every particular and he loves you right he wants you to be closer to his heart and you just have to pray it ask how do I do it what’s the next step what’s the next step what’s the next step and will be painful on the way yes I’m not gonna I’m not going to hide it will be tough right it’s a taking up the cross but will be the best thing you ever did and bring you the most joy and transform everything in your life absolutely totally it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done and it’s the best thing ever done yeah but my wife Marilyn I agree with that gay Lily again I’ll recommend father debates book unhappy are the poor because that’s what he deals with this issue of attachment detachment you know would you not follow truth because you are attached to an image you have yes or how your understood in a community would you fall hold back from going to that which is true and beautiful and right yeah because your children like living in a lifestyle yeah living towards images and so how do you cut through those attachments and the blindness you might have to see that God might have something a whole lot better than you had ever imagined it’s how I mean when I took off the collar and started wearing a tie again I hated that I go pain in my chest you know it was it was a sacrifice it’s worth it Edward I’ll just say one of the things that can we do here is we have a support group for clergies wives yes it’s serious sometimes they have a difficult time stepping away from that image in position within the community that felt great it was a powerful witness for the Lord yes yes support that’s another thing that we should really find people who can help you because often Catholics don’t understand this transition and they don’t know how to support or advice so it’s really good to find people who have been through it email from Vincent from Des Moines how can I respond to my daughter who has left the Catholic Church and says that the church is just an invisible body of believers who believe in Jesus she doesn’t think one particular denomination has more of a claim to truth than another as Episcopalians did you believe in the invisible no we believe in a visible church we usually said it was the Catholics the Orthodox and the Anglican that’s right right the branch there yeah right the branch there that’s what we hope well all you have to do is just go through the scriptures now this will take a while right or you can get a book that does it for you know where is the church presented as an invisible body in fact a body is not invisible that’s the nature of a body we have bodies and you can see me right now Christ is the head of the body right and he’s not invisible I mean we can’t see him right now but he is visible he’s resurrected he has a body you know it’s kind of a gnostic approach to Christianity and it’s just not biblical Christianity it’s not New Testament Christianity it’s a solution to a major problem and that is denominations oh here are tens of thousands of denominations but the Bible talks about the church so what you have to pick one denomination or somehow I have to massage the situation so that we’re all the church neither one of those options is biblical what you need is one church that’s visible that goes all the way the apostles know that therefore could be a pillar and bulwark you know truth is Paul says and first Timothy but in the invisible church can’t be a pillar bulwark of anything yeah and then the other thing is most people who leave the church don’t leave the church for abstraction such as the church is invisible all right usually as I get to know people there’s there’s a hurt that’s happened there’s a lifestyle change it’s not compatible with the church those are the

kind of things that usually stimulate a move from the church or or bad catechesis they’re not properly untrained in the basics of Catholic theology so they’re easily prey to mistakes those are usually you know the things that you hear back while you’re not a Catholic aren’t usually the triggers that lie and so as you get to know someone become a friend or if their family member it’s helpful to gently explore what was it that made you be often the reason that caused a person to leave is not very rational but when they find something that sounds like a rational reason that’s what they latch on – you justify a decision and sometimes a sometimes they’re offended by something that a Catholic did that he shouldn’t do that’s right and you know we’re not perfect that’s the truth separating the church from the actions of its members isn’t has always been important yet but even this invisible church thing is really an outcome of Luther’s rejection of the church so we got to have something so both he and Calvin last on to something that Agustin said I think this is correct Agustin talked about the invisible church but there’s no way in any of the writings of Paul I mean excuse me I’ve seen Agustin would he ever denied the authority of the Catholic Church but he talks about that there are there are people in the Catholic Church they’re not very good Catholics and there’s some people through their baptism that are not officially a part of the church that are very much a part of the church so you get this kind of bit wider than the official royal catechumens aren’t yet baptized but they are included yeah so there’s if you want to call it invisibility but it doesn’t take away from the reality of the visible body of Christ another email Jenna from Illinois my husband and I have been considering becoming Catholic for a few years our biggest problem though is understanding how a mere man ie the Pope can be infallible this belief seems to be a stretch to accept thanks Jenna for your unit good but you know the the quick answer is was st. Paul infallible when he wrote Romans was st. Peter and fallible when he wrote first Peter and so on and so forth you know of all the books of the Bible it’s not because he’s a mere man that infallibility is not a natural capacity for a sinful human being be he pope benedict xvi or st peter and we know that st. peter soon as made pope you know he tried to discourage our Lord from good I’m going into the passion he said get behind me Satan yeah so it’s an understanding and phal body it’s a charism the Holy Spirit given for the protection of the church and for our salvation so that we know the truth so the actually a gift to the church and it’s not because Pope Benedict attained a certain level of sanctity it’s given him my virtue as office only in faith and morals Oh in certain circumstances so which hopefully that I mean would prayerfully we trust that the holy spirit has guided their the right man into the right office so when he hears the responsibility that’s on his shoulder it drives him to even more commitment to sanctity yes that’s right that trynna sanctity of is not something to be proud about because that be the opposite yes exactly you know saying things I went to humility shine and be very cautious on the use of that gift that’s right which I which is rarely yeah yes so yeah it’s it’s right that we should not trust mere men but we do trust the Holy Spirit and the promises of Christ given to the church just like a mere man baptizes well the sacramental grace conferred upon the infant or the person baptized is not from the mere man it’s from the gift yeah yeah but you make a good point that if you can’t accept that the Holy Spirit could cause this man to be infallible we can’t accept that then you have no right accepting the infallibility of the Scriptures that’s right it’s just the same right it’s all a mere whisper that’s right Celia from Vermont writes how can I explain to my brother-in-law that there is a difference between the Eucharist in the Anglican and the Catholic Church he says they believe in the real presence – yes you know when I was a lot of Catholics are surprised to hear this you know when I was an Anglican clergyman serving at the altar I would hold up the host I would genuflect right you know one of the difficulties coming into the church and it seemed to me we had more reverence in the Anglican liturgy then when I came into the Catholic Church where people were standing and receiving in the hand and you know like it’s you know that was a disconnect you know the first you know but that’s what we believed and if you would ask me do you mean the real presence I would say absolutely right the real question though is if they say they believe in the real presence is do you worship the Eucharist what well if you believe it’s him you would worship

now some might even but the the real you have to actually this is actually a lot of research but in 1896 hopefully the 13th issued an encyclical apostolic Kure which declares Anglican orders invalid utterly null and void utterly no one void nothing nada and that’s hard for Anglicans and most Anglicans will contest that and usually they say that either before then or since then Eastern Orthodox or dissident Catholic Bishops have infused sacramental grace back into ordination in England rights and the Catholic Church has always been hesitant about that and even if Anglican men who have those lines which I did come into the church they still get ordained absolutely not conditionally see if the church thinks you might be a priest because you come from another tradition they’ll say if you are not ordained and you get ordained but Anglican clergy are always ordained absolutely the exception being Bishop Graham Leonard because he had a special case with a direct ordination with some mob of the old Catholic Bishops I believe and so they don’t and even if they do even if they do and you know even if I did it’s still wrong and the reason for that is the Eucharist is the sign of unity it is Holy Communion because it brings us into communion with our Lord and in communion with the church you know Pope Benedict in his book called a communion means Cardinal Ratzinger writes about how the Eucharist unites us to the Pope and all the bishops and all the laypeople that’s part of it not just with Christ is he and if you consecrate the Eucharist outside unity of the church is technically a sacrilege which makes it simple which mean you shouldn’t do it well do that there was a key part of the of both the ordination as well as you’re talking about the sacrum of the Eucharist is the intent yes intent when you were ordained whether those men had an actual authentic valid or nation themselves when they ordained you was it the intent to make a Sasser doto priest yes yeah in union with with the Magisterium in union with Peter and that was not the intent yeah so it isn’t some kind of magical formula that’s right it really there’s more involved here is the purpose for it Amina Martin Luther was a priest but I wouldn’t attend his ass even if it even if he had right in tenon was consecrating validly it’s still a sacrilege cuz it’s outside the church yeah you know it’s it’s indecent it’s defying the Pope who’s The Vicar of Christ how can you have Christ’s body blood soul and divinity and defy the Vicar of Christ and I’ve often received emails from Anglicans who watched the show and a good upset when when we’ll say something like this but just saying you believe in the real presence doesn’t make it the real presence no and even in the history in the Anglican Church which was strongly against the reality of the transubstantiation in its teachings I think the 39 articles every civilly that is not a part of it right yeah it explicitly says that transubstantiation is overturn if the nature of the sacrament is what it says right and also calls the sacrifice the mass idolatrous you can’t say that and believe in it so any individual minister does not have the authority to decide this is what it is that’s right or any individual that’s not it has what is true what is objective yeah I can to have invisible realities you know that the visible and the tangible is what makes the Catholic Church the Catholic Church alright very good Rick from Fort Wayne writes if God loves each person just as they are why should anyone especially non Catholic clergy bother becoming Catholic thanks Rick read email would be it to be make a distinction there about God loves us just as a as we are God loves us and so he wants us to be close to him and to be holy right if you love someone you want to see them flourish and thrive and grow right I mean if you love someone and you could free them from prison and you said I love you just as you are so you’re going to stay in for and that’s not love well if that argument were true then Jesus would not have given the Great Commission yeah if there’s a go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations he was just love them the way they are or leave them alone or no because from the beginning the Jews were called to accept Christ as the Messiah the Gentiles were called to be baptized to become a part of the family from the beginning there’s always been this call to move to what is true

and beautiful and right I love my son to my daughters just as they are in that sense right but I’m still standing to school I’m still teaching them catechism I’m still telling they can’t do that they can’t talk back I mean I’m trying to form them so that they will be virtuous because I love them yeah seek holiness yeah that’s what Christ taught in analysis yeah aerosol says to love someone is to love their soul and to want to see it flourish all right all right if let’s assume we’ve got some Anglicans watching what would you like to say to those Anglicans Episcopalians given what’s been happening in the church over the last 10 15 20 years I mean what would you encourage them to to consider as terms of the journey back to them back to the church I think the most important thing is to pray and to pray for Grace’s that you don’t even know that you need you know I think one of those is humility I didn’t see that initially but to really be humble and to realize that the plan you have may not be the plan the Lord has and I think to find people who have made the journey and to get to know them email I’m if you’re out there email me my emails on my website Taylor Marshall calm and we’ll be in correspondence just to bounce ideas off other people and I think pray the rosary every day that sounds sort of like cliche or mechanical but I really do think it transforms you and and I think one of the one problem that Anglicans have is the liturgy they they love chant architecture beauty and to just go into the neighborhood suburban no Sorel parish you know kind of shocked some makes them nervous and there’s a good guy with the guitar you know and and you know that’s that’s a struggle tool and you know I think for our family we’ve found attending the Latin Mass you know the extraordinary form that our Holy Fathers offered and having a joy there and not you know not being bitter or or dissenting you know like some traditional movements you know have but to to be attentively Catholic and to embrace those traditions and still have piety reverence silence beauty chant you know all those things that you love kneeling for communion all those things that that they embrace and are attracted to fulfilled but I would also say though that as its father debate mentions in his book but also all the Catholic spiritual writers have always emphasized that our intimacy with the Lord must not be dependent upon our senses and it has very Carmelite if we if if we’re if we attach ourselves to the things of our senses as the means through which our intimacy with God right we can be deceived well then this Sunday the music’s back oh yeah you know or next Sunday we’ve got a replacement priest who mumbles or whatever you know I’m saying ok so then your intimacy is always attached to this to the senses and I think Anglicans Episcopalians particularly have that problem comes just right the aesthetic yeah and the aesthetic is good it can be a portal to God that’s what music and art and is beautiful it is a portal but God but we can be deceived by those very things right that’s right and that’s that’s part of the deception I think a part of the anglicanism is very beautiful you know you know you look at the royal wedding that happened last year whatever very beautiful very dignified but doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true and being able to make those distinctions you know another thing about the you mentioned debate a few times is the idea of mental prayer is something that I didn’t learn very much as a seminarian in Protestant traditions and in the last few years you know just saying set in the clock for 15 minutes or 30 minutes and being with the Lord and talking very transformative yeah well you’ve been making the transition into adoration and sitting there before the sacrament is it is still a transition to the throw that’s an understanding of simplicity and maybe it is just you before the tabernacle yes it may not be a beautiful environment it’s right it’s Jesus that’s right he’s there yeah that’s the most significant thing Taylor thanks for joining Elijah our journey home and our blessings on your new work as the Dean thank you had Fisher and more Colin yeah thank you very much all right well god bless and

thank you for joining us on this episode of the journey home I I pray that Taylor’s own journey of faith is an encouragement to you guy questions go to his website go to the coming home Network website or go to EWTN we’ve got lots of resources to help you discover the beauty of our Lord Jesus and His Church god bless you see you next week you you Oh