Energy Engineering Distinguished Lecture: Jiri Klemes

For reducing emissions, reducing energy usage, and improving energy efficiency in general So for when the terminal skew particularly innovative in a way that he has a very nice combination of industrial experience and academic students He’s leading many research projects in Europe with a total of more than 100 million Euros in general, well that’s a large number, and he has produced many PhD students, collaborators who are making faculty positions all over the world in Europe, in Asia, in Africa, for many of US yet, but hope very soon, and he has published many, many papers, getting a lot of citations and many awards He has also received six honorarily doctorate degrees from Europe and from Asia That’s totally a big collection of honors and recognitions In the mean time, he’s the editor and editorial member of over 20 journals I don’t know how you can manage them all manuscript and submissions Anyway I’m not going to take up too much time So please join me to give him warm welcome Well, good morning It’s still morning because I haven’t gone to lunch, and I’m very happy to be here for the second time, and the place, university is marvelous, just the airport is a little bit tricky Last time I arrived 3:30 in the morning and this time 14 hours late So I already know the place and I am scheduling my arrival one day earlier to arrive just on time Now what I’m going to talk the first you leave got very strict policy of having everything 50 percent male and female So I’ve got 50 percent of my authorship female She’s very bright now graduate She managed PhD with less than two years and also contributed a lot to the research Now as an introduction to myself I was born in the country which doesn’t exist anymore It was called Czechoslovakia and it split it into two, but we are not fighting nation, we are very peaceful people There some jokes if the Czech army should win the war, we should make our enemies drunken then still their weapons, and advance like this, more or less, but during the Second World War, the most successful fighter pilot in Royal Airforce was actually Czech The person who shut down the majority of German planes, but he had to fly in Polish quadro Why? Because he was always flying after little bit of a special drink Anyway, so my life’s route went from Czechoslovakia to the industry I spent 20 years in the industry, built, or better say to start up and commissioned a number of plants Most of them are destroyed now Why? Because where its oil and gas, it’s always some military conflict Basara, the homes, this part of the Ukrainian, it’s not so much about human rights, it’s very much about oil and gas So I move to academia, went to Edinburgh, which is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, at least in summer But after I got the invitation, which I couldn’t refuse, it was match the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology, and that time outstanding laboratory about process integration by borderline hawk, and when I reached retirement age, I’ve got Marie Curie Grant Chair of Excellence, went to Hungary, and after I’ve got another big round at the moment, €5 million and return after 50 years to my Alma mater, to my own university, and I’ve got already another ground one billion Euro for sign-off check project This Jiaotong Xi’an and synoptic So I built this group This is for Chinese New Year, and you can see it’s fairly international,

and it has also the number of collaborators, and those collaborators are not just visiting each other and having good time, which of course we would like to have, but about joint publications and joint projects, and this is the Sino-Czech project Again, it works very well We’ve got a lot of university we are collaborating with, and it’s coming from very different countries I very much like, for example, Philippines Before I consider Philippines as a small island, but it has got nearly 120 million people Can you imagine it’s not small country On a map of the universe it is It was already set This is one of my babies, Journal of Cleaner Production The baby is now 27 years old, which is young lady in the best years, but unfortunately or fortunately growing too much Can you guess how many papers [inaudible] received last year? How many do you think? Any guess? A thousand Okay. Good. Any other? Two thousand Twenty two thousand Twenty two thousand So it’s a huge journal and baby growing, but I’m happy it’s successful, it still has got good impact factor So I’m not persuading you to submit papers, I should say don’t, but we are always happy with good papers, and this is multidisciplinary journal and covering the number of issues which are, most of them are very hot nowadays So to the talk, I will start about circle economy Why? Because when we made statistic of most cited papers in Journal of Cleaner Production, first 10 places were about circular economy, but you might agree or not, but this is what is now a real buzzword, and I would like to make little bit balance, the overview of circular economy It has got strong market drivers It can be win-win situation, create value, well, it can contribute to risk management, environmental efficiency, innovation, brand image, those are all pluses But it’s not as simple as nothing is simple in the world and in the engineering especially This is one of the pictures which has been published Everything looks rosy, but if you go down, well you need energy and you still create waste Not all the waste can be circled in new raw materials Actually, we can circulate a lot, but what would be the cost? It’s not wise and you can’t sell it to the company’s side to save energy at any cost, to circulate at any cost It has to be financially viable, and what are the challenges? We’ve got thermodynamic limits Well, we always need energy, and all energy on this planet is coming from the sun, but energy is downgraded and properly exergy, and we are always coming from a higher level of temperature to the lower level of temperature We’ve got system boundary limits and circular economists sometimes shifting the problems around the circle and becomes the shifted forever, and there’s some bad issues So the circularity we already discussed for example, one related to heavy metals In our food chain, we’ve got very, very low still permitted by legal limits Few ppm of heavy metals, but if we circle it 10 times, this is accumulating So in the EU, we now are not allowed to use sludge from

wastewater treatment plants as fertilizer for the fields because it looked okay, but 20 times multiplying it become dangerous So it’s one issue which is demonstrating the problem Limits posed by physical scale economy I don’t know how much you know about the rebound effect, Jevons paradox, boomerang effect It’s very much about psychology, but simple example is if I designed the car which has got the fuel consumption 50 percent Do you think that we will be able to save 50 percent of fuel? No. Why? It’s about psychology It’s the Jevons paradox because if it’s cheaper, I will use the car more and sometimes it can finish that actually the fuel consumption is more than the previous 100 percent because fuel is so cheap, so I don’t care and I drive more and more and more So there are many, many physical issues I have been in Manchester in the part of a Tendril Center for Research in climate change Mr. Tyndall was the Scottish scientist who first realized the greenhouse gas effect But he’s not in the center because he lived 200 years ago But when I came there, I was very much surprised because half of researchers were from sociology, psychology, and others I as a core engineer, I said, what those people can tell us? But they can because we as engineers are able to design very efficient hardware, very efficient building, very efficient industry, cars, everything, but we need to persuade people to use it, and this is different story So there are many limits, and there are also limits of governance, and management, and the limits of social, culture, definitions In different countries, we’ve got different culture If you are, say, in India, you mustn’t touch the cow If you are in Europe, some people are, well, not eating pork Some people are loving pork It’s a variety of nations, and we have to deal with them So this is the relation between environment, waste-to-energy, and circular economy system Many things are actually related to waste, waste treatment, and waste management In circular economy, it shouldn’t be anything like waste, but unfortunately, it is When I was in Manchester, do you know what was the biggest business in Greater Manchester? The biggest business wasn’t IBM, it wasn’t the Rolls-Royce, it was the Greater Manchester Waste Management Authority because this eight million people are creating enormous amount of waste, and it’s growing, and this is, again, psychology problem, because if we would like to be sustainable, we shouldn’t get everything packed in 10 boxes, plastics, everything But this is the culture So this is one of the pictures which we created, critical issues of circular economy What we suggest, that the circularity shouldn’t be this big, round, but it should be as small as possible, not to go around, but reuse, recycle as early as possible Because if we are going around the cycle, it requires logistics, it requires resources, and it actually creates more waste So this is about circular economy, and now we are coming to emission, which is the main part what we are doing, everybody’s talking about it We’ve got greenhouse gases, and unfortunately, all those graphs are not looking very nice Politicians are talking, the Swedish girl is talking, which I think she should rather demonstrate on Saturday and Sunday, and go to the school,

but this is my old fashioned opinion But we have to do something What do you think about greenhouse gases? If it has got big influence or lower influence, it’s escalating, and it will escalate It will escalate more and more Why? Because the number of people on this planet is growing, and it’s not only China, India It’s assumed that India has got more people than China nowadays, but who knows? What is happening? More people need more food Well, they’re breathing as well some CO2 But when the level is growing up, everybody would like to have car, everybody would like to have air conditioning, everybody would like to get house, and it’s a big amount of resources There are some theories that this planet is not able to survive more than 10 billion people, who knows? But the forecasts are that the critical situation will be about the year 2050 Unfortunately, I’m not going to be alive for 2050, but most of you, yes But do you know what will happen? Africa. Africa population is at the moment kept down by diseases and bad living conditions, but it’s improving There are countries like Nigeria, which I know, booming population, 150 million, and all of them will, again, need the resources So we all know the carbon emission cycles I am a little bit touchy when somebody is using terminology, carbon-less society, decarbonizing, because this is nonsense This is for media Because if we would like decarbonize this room, everybody should provide 12 percent of the body because 12 percent of our body is C. Well, but most of chairs and everything would disappear because it contains C, so it’s about carbon emissions As you can see, the CO2 is not just the industry, and I’ve been shocked, I’ve moved my research now quite a lot to agriculture and forestry Your forests are actually generating more greenhouse gases because it’s not just CO2, but methane and others, than they are capturing So what green? Because those forests are not managed to capture CO2, they’re managed as industry producing booth, and this is very bad So we have to consider all issues, and what we can do if we would like to contribute, real contribute? Waste energy Waste energy is a big problem This is some graph showing where the energy goes, industry, transport, others But this is shocking picture, US balance On the left-hand side, you’ve got input Look for renewables, not too much, but direct conversion losses This is official picture from a very credible sources in the US US is the most advanced economy and losses of energy are 66 percent, two-thirds, and the countries which are not so advanced, we’ve got much more So what I am saying, I’m not a politician, but they should go research funding to renewables, yes, but mainly to conversion losses, to losses of energy because if we reduced it by 20 percent, we don’t need so much coal, and the problem is close to be solved Well, global waste heat It’s a lot of waste heat are mainly low potential heat The heat, I’ve being making consultation to many oil refineries, and the first questions I always receive, tell us what we should do with slow potential steam Steam which is 105 degrees centigrade

Well, it’s a lot What we can do is this, we can use it for heating the town, but no town would like to be close to the refinery because refinery is dangerous animal, smelly animal So nobody would like to live 400 meters from the refinery Well, we should do something with this Energy consumption Thermal processes in the UK are the most demanding, and most of this goes, again, to low potential heat So if you want to make some very meaningful research in circular economy, try to find what to do with slow potential heat because there are possible savings Circularity indicator, again, it’s measured by different ways But why I put this slide, look on this graph, how much it generates waste If we are talking about circularity, still recovered flows are very thin, wastes are very strong Now, I would like to use few slides about the waste, about the plastics, polymer, resins, synthesis fibers, additives This is the topic which receives a lot of attention Why? Well, those are pictures which are well known But REO avert that the most dangerous plastic or dangerous it’s strong picture because so far no medical capacity say that it’s really dangerous But it can be, not plastics but micro plastics, very small particles and then they are generating If I wash the clothes micro plastics are coming out, if I shave myself micro plastics, if you use makeup, micro plastics, many things but also car tires They are creating a lot of micro plastics which goes with the rainwater to the seas So the problem is more complicated Now, one funny question, plastic versus paper cup What is more environmentally friendly? Many producers now I think they are moving from plastics to papers So we use the balance from the UK royal society of chemistry and found this paper cup is producing much more emissions requires much more energy than plastics Well what is the best solution? I’m always telling students, don’t look on this, look outside the box I’ve got several meetings in the morning and I very much appreciate the professor who came with own cup, traditional cup from ceramic brought it, use it Yes and I really praise you because this is the solution because if it’s plastics or paper we just use it once and throw it out So this is not sustainable This is another example, we shouldn’t be dragged into improved things we should think out of the box, straw for drinking, plastic pipe or beat steel glass What is better? No straw at all because we can just drink it McDonald they started to use paper from coffee and this is much more environmentally friendly unsustainable But they had to stop because it doesn’t survive to drink the full cup of coffee It melted and we got hot So if you are doing the research there are two options to try to improve something traditional or to think out of the box simple solution The set example, I attended a couple of

conferences and conferences are usually providing Q at pen I make an uncut and ask a couple of well-known professor which pen is more environmentally friendly? The top one is bamboo This is from recycled paper but both have plastics Those are some answers and all very complicated I’m going for bamboo and plastics and both are but what is the best answer No pen, why conference should give the pen? Because everybody else has got pen and many of pens So don’t look which one is more environmentally friendly No pen is the solution and is minimum footprint So this is an example how to think and how I’m teaching students In many cases it’s quite successful because they’re thinking for new ideas and sometimes very simple ideas Environmental footprint Footprint is something but, it appear that the year 2008 and one of my students made a review for Journal of cleaner production 2012 and is still one of the most cited papers It’s an example, if you would like to make highly cited paper, you have to pick up something which has got huge potential impact if you are improving reactor Can be very nice piece of chemical engineering You may write very nice paper to chemical engineering science but around the world is not more than 200 people who are really interested If you write about footprints, especially at the beginning it has got more than 600 citations because chemical engineers, mechanical, electrical engineers, everybody is interested This is about, it’s a number of footprints It went to a very funny situation about 2015 Everybody wanted to create new footprint So we calculated about more than 200 sociology, financial footprints, wealth footprints, house footprints But too many is too many this is probably the solution of those most popular, of course carbon footprints are most popular in the media But as I said, carbon footprint is nonsense It should be carbon emissions footprint but better greenhouse gases footprint Why? Because in greenhouse gases CO2 is less than two cells We’ve got methane, we’ve got NOxs and we’ve got VOCs and others Methane is nearly 22 folds stronger than CO2, and there is coming methane little bit from industry, but mainly from agriculture If you’ve got wetland or polluted the river, anaerobic digestion, it creates a lot It also comes from agriculture animals This is my favorite saying, I’m asking people, “Do you know which country is the most polluted country by greenhouse gases per inhabitant?” Everybody is saying China, US But per person, it’s New Zealand [inaudible] They’ve got 4.5 million people and 160 million cows and sheeps What its doing, the cow, breathing, but also creating manure, and manure comes anaerobic digestion and methane So I said, “If you want to reduce greenhouse gases, you’ll need to put all cows into boxes and collect the manure immediately, put it in an anaerobic digestion reactor and you will get a lot of methane.” But animal lovers would kill me because everybody would like free-range eggs and so on

This is, again, sociology We should balance. We should balance greenhouse gases, animal lovers, free-range eggs, free-range milk, and we have to decide what we want because it’s no simple solution, it’s always a trade-off So definition of carbon emission footprint is like this There are some other definitions, but this is probably the most used I just picked up because I haven’t got time, a couple of slides Greenhouse gas footprint of biomass Biomass is no way zero emissions It has got emissions and it can be very different Biomass has got one big problem When we are burning it, we are releasing NOxs Because everything which is green is full of nitrogen, full of NOxs So if you’ve got a boiler using biomass, it’s about this size and three times more is off-gas cleaning of NOxs It’s possible to clean, but you need energy, you need capital, and most people are not doing it You can see what is happening in Australia, forest fires, which are releasing enormous amount of pollution Actually, Australia, those forest fires created much more pollution than the whole US, and it’s biomass, so zero emission But it’s not zero emission Emissions are everywhere and sometimes very unpleasant So we can also use footprints for so-called eco-cost and eco-benefit when you can increase this or improve it But we’ve got also water footprint Water, the forecast that, again, this in 20 years, most military conflicts will not be about gas, oil, and coal, but about water People need water, and need more and more water This was developed by people from around Hoekstra from Delft Universities, and it’s quite clever The problem with water footprints, it’s not the same water He made the classification: blue, green, and gray water Unfortunately, we are taking blue, green and creating this gray, but it’s not really gray in many cases It can be very colorful, but more colorful, diverse So it’s about water footprint, nitrogen footprint Again, nitrogen is a very tricky thing NOxs are greenhouse gas, but they’re also responsible for many bad things As you can see, it’s industry, but the animals, the fertilizers and all are related to nitrogen footprint This is what the nitrogen is responsible for Respiratory diseases, NOxs are actually one of very important part of haze If you look on big cities and the haze, NOxs are very important part of it, and some health problems and so on Now, how it is these greenhouse gases emissions, should we consider countries by emitting? Definitely not We should consider who is guilty by consuming Because look on these big flows of virtual greenhouse gases emissions to the EU and to the US Because if we buy mobile phone, if we buy the computer, which is made in China, footprints had to be released there and we are clean and we are just consuming But this is not the major issue Fertilizers are the most energy demanding and most polluting, and China is making 90 percent of fertilizers

Again, this is my favorite saying, I came to Ludwigshafen, to BASF, a huge German chemical company named by German name, it was about paints and fertilizers and say various fertilizer plant They’ve got big hole because about 50 years ago fertilizers are very tricky, because if you are a terrorist and would you like to blow something, you just buy a bag of fertilizer With 50 kilograms of fertilizer, you can blow up this building very easily and [inaudible] They’ve got big hole because it was a huge explosion But they just decommissioned the plant and pushed it outside the EU and saying, “We are clean We are not making.” So you should consider these virtual flows, and there are virtual flows of other footprints, even water footprints This is something different Japan is considered to be quite clean But as you can see, it’s not the case Japan made a little bit hysterical reaction after Fukushima You can see what happened They stopped these yellow nuclear power plants and both released gas and other polluting sources of energy So this is not really the best solution Fukushima was, but how many people were killed at Fukushima? I don’t know about any Maybe some. But close to it was oil refinery and there 56 people died and media nothing So I am not supporter of nuclear energy But if you like it or not, we can live for the moment Well, wind power Wind power, people are saying zero emissions but to build this wind turbine, you can see the size compared with Airbus 380, it requires a lot of material and what do you need to get it on foundation and the foundation for such a mast should be very solid and it requires a hundred cubic meters of concrete Concrete [NOISE] has to be produced and it creates footprints It’s not like the mast which is actually not having a lot of vectors of power You know, this wind turbine, their wind is going from all different sides, but it’s not all Now the US will have more than 720,000 tons of blade material because the blade has got a lifespan maximum 15 years It’s made from kevlar, so it’s not easy to cut it on the spot You’ll need to take it, you need to bring it somewhere to a specialized manufacturing plant and to do some seamlessness So those are example being made the kind of batteries of photovoltaics or wind turbine What do you need to do and what is about their recycling, their use, alternative, and challenges? This should be done for all so-called renewable sources of energy because as English are saying, “There’s no free lunch, everything should be paid.” There are some other, I seen some very nice lecture from the Beijing Normal University about building wind turbines If you need to build something on a hill, you need to make the road and big road in the mountain, and it’s actually used just twice, commissioning and decommissioning But it makes a big impact of the ecosystem because the road should be for such a big turbine about 30 meters wide and it takes the layer out and starts erosion So there are many problems Now, smog, haze, as I said, SO_x, NO_x, VOC and particulate matters, and PMs are very bad

Well, this is what you can see in many big cities and what we should do? Of course, we should reduce amount of fossil fuels, definitely But other sources, VOCs, No_x and especially PMs and remote monitoring of a city It’s very interesting now development about street [inaudible] If you’ve got a big building, it’s like a valley, and what is happening? The circulation of the air is somehow influenced that it can be good or bad But if you are measuring cars stopping on a red light, it’s not only emissions, tires, again, small PM, acceleration again, and PM then are looking bad, if you’ve got something white, PM would make you that But PM below one, it actually is not settling on our lungs It goes through our lungs to the stream blood and causes a lot of different cancers What to do with this? You know, Delhi. This is now the city which is really, really in trouble and Beijing is doing a big issues to reduce it, but do they not and what is going to happen this many big cities in developing countries and results are worldwide Ambient air pollution contributes to more than five percent of all that So what is more important? Demonstration about greenhouse gases or this pollution I personally saying this is really what is killing people now, increasing the temperatures It can kill people within 30, 40 years But this is killing people now and we should do something You can see you’ve got a lot of different contaminants and you can’t escape your home You know, British are saying, “My house, my castle.” But the castle can be pretty polluted and it’s sometimes question if it’s better to stay inside or go outside, and the more modern things we’ve got, the more pollution So what to do? Some people are buying air purifiers, which is [inaudible] but our lungs are not getting enough [inaudible] for situation then we are going out If we decide to leave in the room where air is clean, fine But it is the problem with very clean environment It was found that children who are living into clean houses, got a lot of eczema They are sometimes need to be exposed to a little bit of that This is the safe. Contaminants in the ambient air Again, you can see we’ve got plenty of different sources It was very nice application You can get it in your mobile API, Air Pollutant Index, and you can see different places around the world and sometimes you are surprised You wouldn’t say those cities really so much exposed There are actually number of applications about different pollutions and it’s good to use it Sources of contaminations, there are many I wouldn’t read it through You can find it in EPA, US Environmental Protection Agency website, which is very credible For the final part is [NOISE] about smart cities and the Internet of things This is a well-known model Smart Environments, Smart People, Smart Living, everything is smart, great Well, do you know what is the most difficult? Most difficult are Smart People Because other things you can somehow manufacture and assemble Smart people so far are difficult to be manufactured

They can be only educated I’m saying as a professor, I’m trying to educate my students to be smart people and I hope when they graduate, they will have again their own students and this pyramid should go and change, but it’s too slow because people are many To be smart requires the change of the philosophy that I don’t need several cars, I don’t need the house It’s 10 rules I don’t need to use air conditioning when the temperature is 26, which is happening and I shouldn’t waste food Wasting food is a very bad environmental crime and if we manage to reduce wasting the food, the most problem this emissions would be solved I’ve got official figure from Tesco UK supermarket and they made the research and 60 percent of food sold by Tesco supermarket is wasted, and if you transform it into emissions, influence, and everything You know, if we just behave slightly different, it wouldn’t need so many measures and reductions and loss, we should just behave, and so I’m telling my students that when we go to the counting for lunch, you should take only so much as you can eat and when you put it on the plate, you should eat and I loved the message in one Chinese hotel for breakfast It was free lunch, you could take what you want, but it was written here, “Please eat and drink as much as you want, but what you leave on your plate, they’ll be weighed and you are going to be charged three times more for it.” It should be done everywhere It’s not democratic, but either we should feel like this, not only if we say about sustainability and whatever, we should behave like this So to Internet of Things Again, options are enormous We can do a lot, and I personally believe in one thing, what can solve the problem with mobility, with transport in big cities, the only way are autonomous shared cars As I’m calling for a taxi to take application, say, in 20 minutes, I need the car here, it tells me, not 20 minutes, but 23 The autonomous car will come, not my own because why own a car? A car is idle most of the time, and again, car is a lot of steel, plastics, everything, and a lot of emissions So let’s share the cars Big city which is managed by optimization model can actually reduce the traffic jams because we people are unpredictable We decided to go there If it’s optimization model, the car would drive a little bit slowly, move there, move there to minimize those traffic jams It would be quite a pretty big task to write the software for it, a lot of research, but it would help So this is the model of smart city, where you’ve got many things, but something is missing there, and what is missing is the industry because a city can’t actually act without industry, and industry means flow of material, products, and flow of people So this should be a little bit extended, but it’s a lot of development You can see smart street lights This is the most recent development I don’t know if you’ve got it here, but we’re lighting streets all the night Why? If you’ve got good sensor for movement, the street lights are switched on when they indicate some movement When nothing is moving, why light it? There are many, many things like this

Smart buildings, again, it’s a lot of opportunities Some are introduced Some are at the moment too expensive, and it goes to energy The problem is that smart cities will require a lot of energy Smart city is saving some energy, but requires a lot of energy, and this is the major challenge that we’ll have this slide talk about We’ve got mobility We can do a lot to make it energy efficient We can do a lot about the waste, as waste is contributing to pollution a lot We’ve got some figures here Do you know this place? This is actually from your city, this smart waste bin, which is indicating that it needs to be collected because otherwise, you have some big lorry to collect something which is not there Smart alarming system If at 9/11, they’ve got smart alarming system, many people would be saved because if we look here, we’ve got exit, exit But if fire is there, we would run into fire It should be changing; it should be intelligent Well, we have to do a lot What needs to be done, most populations will live in cities Big cities would be more and more bigger, and it requires a lot of research So there are examples of green buildings, this is the list of most sustainable buildings You can believe it or not But the last thing which I would like to mention is smart industry, 4.0 Germans called it 4.0 I don’t know why It is like this There are benefits, but there are also problems, and what is the problem of smart industry, are, again, environmental footprints, emissions, waste resources, and they have to be more efficient than non-smart Otherwise, why they should use it? So we’ve got problems with logistics, integration to smart environment, energy circle, economy, and there are some many, many other things But the major, major issue is what has been happening Those are examples of some big companies who started to implement, and each of them is doing something which is highly appreciated, but still, it needs a lot But what I like is smart agriculture Farmer will not be, hopefully in the future, the guy in the muddy boots coming through manure, but an operator sitting in front of the monitor The cows will be monitored by drones, by microchips This will tell you that they need to eat, they will need So this is the vision of the future But the problem is energy, and we’ve got this example of those data centers I already mentioned that data centers are a growing source of environmental emissions, and it will be more and more So because you need to leave, I will jump to the end There are many other interesting things, but we should consider this Internet of Things from two points, from benefits and profits, and from the problems Absolutely, the last thing is safety and security In the future, you don’t need to bomb city To get over the smart city, what do you need? You need hackers Yeah. They either put it on standstill or they persuade the city to do what you want,

and generals are always preparing for the previous war Nowadays, the most powerful army will be the army with IT people, with smart IT people, because in that case they can do everything, and we’ve got examples There are cyberattacks which already did very, very bad things. So that’s it [APPLAUSE]