NO MORE BUSINESS AS USUAL SCHUMACHER LECTURE

today’s talks are around business so we’ve been looking at the different themes this is around no more business as usual we have selection three great speakers on the topic andrew sims 1 the founders of New Economics foundation Deborah Meaden known to many of you from Dragon’s Den an ambassador for WWF and Julia Davenport from good energy who at the moment is demonstrating the power of just in time management by virtue of the fact that she will be with us at some point in the next half an hour we hope I’d like to kick off by introducing Andrew as I said is the founder of New Economics foundation and his latest book eminent corporations the rise and fall of the great british corporation he’s been the co-author of groundbreaking new green new deal report and co-founder the green new deal group writes regularly in the national press and has been behind things like the climate campaign 10 10 very heartened to know that his the topic of his new book which will be coming out at the end of the year is canceled the apocalypse how and why the end is not nigh so which spirit of optimism are like to introduce you to andrew sims thank you very much oh you notice there’s a slight smell of wet dog in the room I think that’s just me I think you can only get better though Oh or can it so today UK Uncut won the legal right to challenge the sweetheart deal between Goldman Sachs and the Inland Revenue and that ardent advocate of extreme executive high pay Martin Sorrell had his claim for thirty percent rise in his 6.8 million pay package thrown out by his shareholders that’s the good news over download all the way from there let me share with you a few words I stumbled across quite recently a pandemic spreads a terrorist detonates the nuclear bomb in a major city and claims to have more ready to explode ice caps melt coastlines are submerged and crops wither from drought clean fresh water becomes increasingly difficult to obtain or maybe it is oil that becomes scarce or a global financial panic erupt that regulators cannot contain any one of these scenarios could occur in our lifetimes the one thing they all have in common is that their occurrence will touch off panic and in some cases hysteria as a result these events will also contain the seeds of profit for investors who stay calm and think rather than panic and run ladies and gentlemen those words are taken from the wall street journal’s guide to investing published last year ladies and gentlemen I contend for this evening that there is nothing like business as usual happening in the world at the moment in fact things have got so out of whack that there is no alignment whatsoever between the direction of the economy and the direction of a sustainable way of living our little friends Goldman Sachs thought that what happened back in 2008 was so unlikely that the chief executive described it as a 25 signal event now for those of you who are not mathematicians or physicists and I include myself in that but I had it explained to me that expressed as a ratio to one is if you can imagine all the particles in the known universe times that by 10 and then move the decimal point fifty two places to the right in other words in the risk management models of one world’s largest financial institutions what happened in 2008 was impossible is perhaps not surprising that the same financial institution kind of demands a rate of return around about twenty-two percent on its investments which kind of places the kind of pressure on the economy which the environment finds hard to bear and it’s unsurprising given the nature of these risk management models in the system we have which is anything but business as usual the IBM reckoned the fund management industry destroys value to the tune of about 1.3 trillion

dollars a year and it’s why some years ago our old friend John Maynard Keynes pointed out that capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone it also explains why if we leap forward a few decades that some of the central pillars of our economy today have seen that there are deep systemic thoughts running through how we do business Mervyn King governor of the Bank of England should know a thing or two about banking observes of all the many ways of organizing banking the worst is the one we have today Richard Lambert chief executive or former chief executive of the Confederation of British industry that hotbed of revolutionary fanatics points out that the chief executives of some of the footsie 100’s top firms are behaving as if they are like aliens in their relationship to what they expect to get in their room you know remuneration packages Adair Turner another former head of the CBI who found his way through the Climate Change Committee to the Financial Services Authority who’s described much of what the city does as socially and economically useless this ladies and gentlemen is not a circumstance in which we have anything like business as usual to shape and manner and dynamics in the modern global economy of the last of the last 30 years thoroughly thoroughly out of whack and we don’t seem to be learning jpmorgan five years after you would have thought that people would have learned a lesson or two because of the so-called rogue wailed trader have about seven billion dollars at risk if you wanted to count that literally it would take you 222 years apparently according to the Financial Times they now have a plan a JP Morgan to deal with what they described as catastrophic idiosyncratic events which basically where JP Morgan are concerned seems to be a normal day at the office and still are unrealistic expectations of how the economy will behave continued way out of whack with what everybody else is getting in this period of austerity we’ve seen CEOs pay up another twelve percent we have shell who made record profits in the last quarter who say and I quote rather giddley that they simply cannot make the numbers work when it comes to investing in the development of offshore wind power you’ll notice that they can make the numbers work when it comes to investing in thoroughly dirty and inefficient shale oil in Canada and North America you’ll notice they can also put their lawyers to work rather effectively when they put injunctions on every single Greenpeace national office to prevent them from campaigning to save the Arctic from turning into yet another black gold rush and we have BP another one of our great oil companies who wants promises and just over a decade ago that they go beyond petroleum and have pulled out of virtually all of their investments in renewable energy perhaps we shouldn’t be so surprised because it’s a little known fact that when BP started like they they weren’t actually called BP the very first time they were a company at all they chose the incredibly appropriate name of the first exploitation come any we also have a situation in which one of the world’s largest coal producers Coal India can list on the London Stock Exchange raise about three billion worth of capital and in their prospectus of 510 pages or more not mention climate change once and we have a situation in which mcdavis who is the chief executive officer of xstrata one of the biggest mining companies in the world has been thrown a little inducement of 46 million dollars just to hang around while they merge with glencore one of the world’s largest commodity traders perverse incentives all now those are all important numbers but here’s some rather more important numbers to put it in to context about 10 days ago we heard that for the first time the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere rose above 400 parts per million well apart from the fact that it’s heading in the wrong direction in it should be heading down not up why is that particularly

significant well one reason it’s particularly significant is that conservatively the last time the concentration of greenhouse gases above thee and above the Arctic hit that level was over 800,000 years ago or put another way before anything vaguely human set foot upon the land mass of the United Kingdom where we have evidence of human habitation going back just 700,000 years so that brings to mind that the NASA climate scientist James Hanson’s words that we are in the business at the moment of losing the climatic conditions in which human civilization emerged and things are heading still the wrong way the European Union which has meant to be a global leader in action on climate change saw its emissions rise two-point-three percent in the last year for which data is available not for it should be going down and James Hansen himself has looked at the way the nonlinear way in which the chances for meaningful action are slipping beyond our grasp that’s to say that had we been able to stabilize concentrations as recently as 2007 we’d have needed to cut emissions about three percent year-on-year that didn’t happen if we wait and it starts happening next year we plateau next year the amount of which we’d have to reduce emissions would have go up to seven percent if we wait until 2020 which is when many people think of the most the earliest date when likely to get the next phase the global climate treaty well then the rate we need to cut leads to about fifteen percent Nick’s turn in his review on the economics of climate change points out that the only time the advanced industrialized economies have got much above one or two percent is in times of absolute economic collapse we have fossil fuel companies still prospecting for new resources when the science is telling us we can only afford to burn less than one-half of what is left in the ground the rest from a realistic point about our collective survival is unburnable unburnable oil companies have to list their assets as proven and probable now’s the time to introduce a new category unburnable what’s our window to action well we reckon that based upon the IPCC’s estimates of risk but to stay on the right side of the likelihood of us going above two degrees that critical moment of which the environment of domino’s begin to fall we’ve got about fifty four months left to turn things around before the loading of the dice operate against us and yet and yet and yet what do we hear from our coalition government or let’s say the dominant partner within our coalition government and let’s be more specific and name the Treasury we hear that the economy will not be sacrificed on the needs of environmental action we must look over our shoulders every second to worry about the judgment of the markets men they say markets what they really mean is a fairly small handful of major institutional investors who slush money around now we’ve heard this before and Bristol’s quite a good place to reflect upon that we’ve heard it before when everything is crying out for something to be done every nerve a fiber of your being is telling you that a great injustice a great immorality is occurring at a grander stage and we’re told that action is not possible because it will wreck the economy we sit here in Bristol and there was a sugar merchant called John Kerry who once described slavery as the best traffic the kingdom Duff have and people who opposed the abolition of slavery said it could not happen because if it happened it would destroy the economy of our island also born in bristol a man called Samuel plimsoll once described as the most dangerous man in Britain why because he saw that sailors were dying in their thousands because ships were being overloaded and he campaigned ultimately successfully for the introduction of the safety load line on shipping but he was told that the British Empire depended upon ship owners being able to do what they want how they wanted it and to introduce that progressive measure would wreck the economy but as we look forward it’s useful to remember that it’s so difficult to imagine the future being fundamentally different from now which is crazy really because if you want to know how different tomorrow can be from today look at how different today is from yesterday and things which will want to neisha slee grab hold of have been let go to make a better world we need to reimagine on a far grander scale

than anything we’ve done up to date things like beautiful things that make life a better place to live like the city of Ghent whoo so we designed their transport system that cars are now treated as guests places like save our island of the Sunderbans in southern india looks growing 100% renewable places like what we now understand as being the cradle of life the Galapagos Islands also trying to go entirely renewable in their energy a city in the United States like Detroit once the definition of the internal combustion driven fossil fuel hungry industrial economy that reinvented itself through urban horticulture it’s going from Motown to grow town one of the most densely populated cities in North America Manhattan a study last year by Columbia University that pointed out it’s actually got about five to six thousand acres worth of space that it could turn over to community farming high streets with empty shots let’s reimagine those empty spaces as hubs for energy efficiency measures for community growing initiatives for time banks Bristol there it is champing at the bit ready to race ahead with a Bristol pound big it up for that when it comes out something which helps the resilience of local economies and just as much as all of that we need to reimagine how companies operate how they’re governed so that we can break the lock grip for those unrealistic demands from finance in the book that got mentioned earlier eminent corporations you don’t need to read a book feel free to obviously but I’ll summarize it in two sentences is basically a story of the way that many great companies that started out with high ambitions were blown off course by the impact of finance driven speculation expectation and demands for returns we need to rethink those dynamics so that it’s no longer the case that for all our talk of the triple bottom line of social environmental and financial accounting the day-to-day reality lived by many many people many many companies is of the single bottom line of answering to finance above all else and if you haven’t learned anything else in the last five years then that’s something we need to turn around now there’s other ways of course in which we can the economy but can help us think about productive new directions today my organization neff published its latest edition of a Happy Planet Index and where instead of using GDP GNP we use a different measure we look at the ecological footprint and combine that with measures of meaningful human outcomes which we use life expectancy in life satisfaction as proxies for broader human well-being in that index you get in effect and measure the ecological efficiency with which we achieve meaningful long and relatively happy lives top lat list is costa rica in fact latin america does really well across the board they manage high life expectancy high life satisfaction with only moderate ecological footprints the UK comes 41st just below Moldova the United States comes 150 min estar and John lanchester here at a brilliant book about the financial crash of a few years ago called whoops described what was done to hold the economy together then as being something like a war effort I think we could look at something similar to both save the economy and turn it round and green it we published a thing called the green new deal where we started off with the kind of rear egg y elation of the financial sector that Franklin Roosevelt engaged in back in the 1930s to pull the economy back together then and we’ve taken it further to try to imagine a great transition for the UK in which we radically reduce our levels of consumption and energy use to get on a safe carbon Park and one of the ways in which we compensate for the lower consumption is by moving to a more equal society and we modeled where we would go on the likes of Denmark quite a convivial place to live by all accounts and the potential the economic potential of doing this is immense the International Labour Organisation published a report a couple of weeks ago talking about the prospect of 60 million new green jobs green collar jobs on the twentieth of June when the real cost twenty conference is going on look up the festival of transition on the website world organising events and happenings all around the country to do things at rather than following the iron filings of the magnets of these big

international efforts but to get on and do something practical but if we are going to have change we need to tackle the sort of the folk wisdom that holds us back that makes Osborne stand up and feel that he can say that he’s not going to sacrifice the economy on the needs of environmental action and I just wrestle are just going to finish now they’re going to wrestle deter to try and get my my mind around Bashir wrongheadedness of that notion the idea that environmental action is getting in the way of the economy and I thought how else can one describe that what’s that the equivalent of saying well it’s a bit for me like saying that you know center gets in the way of Christmas or that presents get in the way of birthdays that drink gets in the way of sating your thirst or food to sate your hunger it’s a category error it’s a fundamental misunderstanding to think that the environmental the environmental action is a block to the economy because the environment is the prior condition and the parent company to the economy it must be moved to our to its center and so unlike our friends on the wall street guide to investing and in this circumstance which is not business as usual perhaps the best advice to investors is that we must stop treating the planet as if it’s a business in liquidation ladies and gentlemen thank you very much for listening thank you Andrew welcome Juliet sorry i’ve done the just in time management gag already yeah there is Celia yeah after power the it was interesting the response of the vicar’s report was published us today and the treasury used the word sustainable economy and interestingly there’s not a single reference to sustainability in the entire 60 pages of the document so it’s quite interesting in terms of definition next speaker up is Deborah Meaden she joined the panel of investors for series three of dragons den and has since invested a number of businesses ranging from market research to online antiques valuations most recently steps in to acquire Fox brothers a historic textile firm based in the Southwest which was on the verge of closure in 2009 accepting a role as an ambassador for the WWF world’s leading environmental organization Deborah actively supports environmental charities and initiatives Deborah sits on the board of Round House the North London arts center is an ambassador for lend with care patron for tusk trust fellow of the RSA trustee for the design council has recently become an ambassador for World skills in London Deborah actually I don’t mind the silence always that you have to earn the clap but thanks for the cough up front anyway let’s see what you do at the end of it um I’ve got a cell to have listened to can you hear me no does anybody hear anything I just said I’m fired provides start talking to everybody um how many business owners do we have here a few okay that’s interesting I’m because i kind of i found what i was listening to absolutely fascinating I come from a slightly different space so I spend a lot of time talking to I’ve got a lot I’ve got 21 of my own businesses and I spend a lot of time talking to other businesses about how they’re feeling you know what’s working for them not working for what’s not working for them um and because I’m so passionate about sustainability as we understand it in this context it’s something I talk to a lot of people about there’s been a bit of debate this week over whether the word sustainable is actually it’s coming for a bit of stick you know is this one of those words that gets bandied around a lot does it really mean anything anymore and and you know what I think it does just because a word gets used a lot doesn’t make it a bad word we have this habit of adopting words and then throwing them away because we over use them we don’t apply them correctly but I can’t think of a more relevant word I can’t think of another way of expressing the way that you have to behave in life and in business if there’s going to be any future at all but when I talk to businesses about sustainability they immediately get or many of them can immediately jump into defensive mode we

are so busy trying to keep ourselves going at the moment we haven’t got time for that as you can imagine I don’t let them get away with that because I would say it would be a crazy person and a crazy business that sat in a boardroom and made a decision that everybody agreed was totally unsustainable and was to lead to the demise of the business so all day every day businesses live in a world that needs to consider sustainability the issue is that the reference points they use are back to money profit so they only use that one profit becomes and it is the main artery of the business but it doesn’t widen that the purpose of a business beyond the cash reward but actually when I talked to a lot of these businesses many of the things that I consider sustainability they are already considering and already doing but they’re not referencing it to long term ism so let me give you an idea which business would say we’re going to waste huge amounts we’re just going to throw stuff away now the truth is they do it business is waste we all waste there wasn’t anybody in this room who doesn’t waste something I weigh stuff and I Hate Waste but we but we all waste but you would not make a decision to sit and just throw stuff away and waste it so already there the job of a business is aligned with sustainability who would say I don’t care about mindful some do who should say I don’t care about the people who work for me I don’t care whether they just go and then you know maybe I’ll attract some low-grade other people because they don’t really care about the world you know who would say that a business wouldn’t do that a business would want to attract the best people to look after those people to keep them within their organizations so again total alignment with sustainability that not represent referencing sustainability as those decision points the issue here I think lies in the word prophet now profit I’m sorry I don’t think as a bad word prophet is is the thing that the absolute thing it a business has to have slight air it’s like water you have to have it for a business to continue otherwise that business fails the problem is the work profit is very very closely defined as the cash it is the difference between the income that you get and the outgoings that you have to spend and if the income is higher than your outgoings that’s your profit now that has to happen for a business to survive but surely profit should be better described as the outcome that you set out to achieve their business that you’re working in and therefore than good it can widen from not just the cash but to say but i want i want the people within this organization to feel worthwhile I want to make sure that we create so many jobs i want those jobs to feel stable i want to make sure that our carbon footprint is not only under control we are reducing it rapidly not just on a on a slow step by step give us 20 years and we’ll get there vases but we are going for it and once you start talking about those things as those are the outcomes that are required in this business and that actually i consider the prophet of this business that’s what i actually gauge my success on if we can get to that point then we’re actually a lot of businesses are at that point but then sort of lose all of the vid around it and just at the end of the day start talking about their profit I think there’s a reason for this and we are all responsible for it when I talk to a lot of the small businesses that I’m involved in often I see a difference between family-run businesses who very much understand long term because they are working for the future they’re working for their their children they get it when you talked about certainly a lot of the big corporations who have got who employing managers who are quite short periods of time they’re going to be in their roles their whole issue is it has to be pretty short term because those organizations at you measure them on short-termism and therefore their sustainability window is a different window to the family

businesses sustainability window so a family business will worry about its next generation somebody working for somewhere probably they’re going to be working for two or three years their sustainability window is just three years and until we actually build a structuring that starts saying it is not good enough to do your job well for the three years that you’re there and not care about what what happens afterwards then we will never get into the longer term approach because that’s all sustainability is if we all generally thought genuinely believed that the world was going to stop in 11 months we would everybody not just the people in this room because I know I’m speaking to the converted in here but everybody in the world would change their behavior if they knew that was what’s going to happen the problem is nobody really believes it’s going to affect them in their lifetime and that is the selfishness of human nature because they can’t see it because it’s not going to affect them now then they can’t see it now family business is we once we start looking forward and start thinking look at the people around us and thinking this is going to fit you look at the children thinking hold on a minute I’m borrowing from you I’m not just borrowing money from you because we’re lumbering with debt I’m borrowing air from you I’m air quality and borrowing green spaces from you because of the way I want to live my life I’m borrowing that from you and until we can get more people to consider that and look forward and lengthen their vision so that they understand sustainability isn’t just about how long they’re how long they’re in their job it actually means the effect it’s going to have on generations into the future then we will never get genuine change within within business I think there’s another issue here sustainability feels very much to businesses like something that is being done to them government legislation absolutely has to play if I think government legislation has to play a part in in in triggering change but it cannot drive genuine change because genuine change is driven by value and belief I actually slightly differ I’m afraid Andrew on something that said earlier because I actually don’t think the rules of business do change business is fundamental is very very simple and I actually think if you look back 200 years ago we would we would see a group of people doing very similar things that we’re doing today in a different way but very similar things business is simple it’s not easy it’s simple you have got to identify a market that wants to buy your product or your services in enough quantities to make it viable at a price that you are able to supply it that’s it and that is what business has been doing for hundreds and hundreds of years that doesn’t change what does change are the mechanics that work within those businesses and the values now the mechanics of a business are often driven are always driven by legislation by the current state of the economy those are the things that tell a business how it has to how it has to overcome things how it has to deliver things and that’s the mechanics that’s not really held about beliefs that’s just say right we’ve got to get from a we’ve got to go to be how are we going to do that that’s the mechanics of it and that will if does mechanics will have changed because legislation will have changed technology will have changed many things would have changed business hasn’t changed but the way we do it has what does change and what is the really really exciting thing is values now our values drive believe it or not i think the beginning to understand that but the value of the customer that’s the value of the people is what really drives behavioral and thought change within an organization because for a long while I believe that there was a bit of being led by marketer muck who now listen I’m a marketeer a little bit of good of being led by the nose by market has been told things but actually when we understand a lot more now the more we know the great news is the more we care the more we care the more we demand from the people that we are buying products or services from and when our values change then it versus the businesses that we are transacting with to change because not only do we are we customers of all of those business I’m a I’m a customer of millions of businesses by also I’m a supplier to you and to millions of other

people and all the people that work work within my organization they are customers to other businesses but as their values change they actually bring that back within your within my organizations as well they start telling me it matters to me the way we behave it matters to me that we’re wasting things it matters to me but we are just not we’re not dealing with sustainability issues I actually I’m chair of a of a of a business called economy I only mention it because it’s a great example of how internal behavioural change within a business or an organization can really really drive a business to rethink the way its operating and it’s a great little business if it supplies software that its behavior change software so we can target people say we want it you know we don’t a print reports one reduced travel we want to do all the things that we would all recognize as reducing waste and we’re going to say that every time you take one of those actions one every time you change your behavior on one of those actions we’re going to give it a value we’re going to tell you that so much you’ve saved the organization in cash but in economy terms in cash terms easy to understand cash terms the organization could therefore say because of that behavioural change this is the benefit the organization the organization that then also say but I’m going to split that benefit and i’m going to give you half of that benefit to spend as you think on charity or social or project whether it’s putting solar PV on the local schools roofs you can spend that money within your local community now this is quite new but the uptake has absolutely blown us away it’s a very simple thing to understand but it was in what I was so pleased to see was that it was almost like the people working within the organization’s and we’re working with some very big organizations well like we’re waiting to be able to do something see that’s brilliant I want to know that the my behave the things that I do are actually I’d like to see the tangible benefits of that because a lot of the stuff we have to talk about in sustainability it’s quite intangible that’s the problem it’s very long term it’s like it’s all gonna happen tomorrow but it’s wonderful to be able to do something if I say I see it I see the difference I made I’ve done that and I through that process I have to say I have hope because what then happens is that suddenly the people who have actually brought economy in probably to satisfy a little bit of their csr begin to realize this letters this actually is important and and then actions follow behavior and I’m a great believer in that it’s amazing her if you behave in a certain way you’re even if even if you’re made to behave in a certain way your beliefs follow because you start thinking that felt good I did something that made a difference that felt good and you start talking about it you speak to your line managers suddenly it’s on the agenda in the boardroom and without even without even making a point of it people start feeling and behaving differently because we will not succeed as long as we have sustainability as a point in the boardroom that’s a failure it shouldn’t be a point in the boardroom it shouldn’t even be on a board agenda trust me it’s on every board agenda that I sit on because we’re not there yet it we shouldn’t have to separate it this should be the way we live we think and we breathe because every single time a business decision is made there should be an automatic reference to how does this affect not just me in my job for the next two years how does this affect the people I’m working with how does it affect our customer out there and much more to the point how does it affect the world and the future the those young people who we quite frankly I’m not serving terribly well at the moment you know we’re living our wonderful lives and they are going to have to pay for it so it’s an odd thing to say I cannot wait for the day that sustainability comes off a point in the boardroom because that should be the

day when every single decision that is made by an organization directly references the effect that they are going to have on the greater world and then that will sustain that were sustainable I won’t get over used anymore thank you very much I have my five minute to minute morning discussion and questions and answers so think now about how you’d like to phrase your concise questions Juliet is founder and CEO of good energy the UK’s only hundred percent renewable energy supplier since good energy was founded over a decade ago it’s affected real change in the energy market now supplying energy to more than 28,000 homes and business is across the UK and supports a community of more than 25,000 independent renewable generators all harnessing natural power from the wind water Sun or through sustainable bio generation do that thank you go and and thank you and good evening um it’s really interesting time to give a speech because you always try and work out where you start from you can write as many speech as you like but can you’ve got to make it relevant where you end up and what’s really interesting about being in his tame bear I don’t know whether you will feel quite odd facing each other and whether you actually want to stop talking to each other or not or debating politics um but actually it was somewhere a bit like this that i first started decided really start good energy or start something like good energy or the concept came to me I’m I was sitting in their house of commons and you guys can pretend you’re conservatives that might go down very badly but but think about it and you can be the Labour Party and I don’t think the lib dems really existed they might be over here somewhere and then at that point this is back in early 1990s and I just come back from Brussels I’ve been working on energy policy in Brussels bit enthusiastic really keen to come and see what was happening in the UK and the whole debate was about new energy technologies and I’m not very good at mine but imagines two rather large file about that big new energy technologies district heating CHP solar wind all being discussed okay Saturn X have really excited this is gonna be a great debate okay it was possibly the worst experience of my life the debate descended into a slag and match of a sphere because it’s the House of Commons and it’s quite an aggressive I don’t know how you feel but it’s quite aggressive sort of thing I was used to sitting in Europe employment where they have a big circle and they’d be nice to each other sometimes and but this is terribly aggressive sort of process and essentially it descended into an argument between the nuclear parallel be and the coal mining lobby and the document that we were actually discussing which is about the future not the past the future never got discussed and I think it was at that point that I felt ultimately depressed about the space of British politics and ultimately depressed about the state of kind of the movement in the energy market what was actually happening and really wants to bypass the whole process and goes directly consumers and that that’s really where good energy came out of one of the exciting things is actually we’re up to 35,000 small generators and 29 pairs and customers and hopefully we should make some new new announcements on that later so it’s a kind of really growing business at the moment and it is fantastic and but I’m cheating and getting the slides because it kind of gives gives me a bit of a rest between well you can look at the picture but what I want to talk about is the energy market and that’s the introduction really is a balance of where the politics in my view of the energy market were in the islet early 90s and and to a certain extent we haven’t moved a huge distance from then today we do have better renewables policies we do have more renewables and thing but 90 I think it’s ninety-nine percent of the UK electricity market is still supplied by six large players and they tend to ask those in very large power stations and essentially we have a centralized distributed power market that means you’re going from a small number of very large players and very large power stations to lots of individuals when you have that and what you also have to remember is that they they are also owned by different countries effectively so we have electricity to France and the Frenchman we have Ian and rwe the Germans we have scottishpower the Spanish slightly paradoxically sse and British Gas the British and and so you’ve got a good instead of a marketplace that most people when they buy their electricity or by their gas would not consider what is going on in this sort of international political debate and how complex it is indeed and and how we’ve managed to allow the power to be so centralized and for very few people to decide what actually is going to be invested in the UK and how it’s

going to work and what’s really interesting is that if I could have SAT here and asked all of you in terms of what do you think how big a process do you think you have in terms of what is the next power station that will be built the UK and what type of generation it will be DVD got any say in that whatsoever no and and and and what I’m going to hopefully tell you is a bit of a story the way I think actually we’re getting much more position in there and they raised a [ __ ] of light at the end of the tunnel but basically we are dominated by six large players and we have very little say in terms of what is built how its applied what price we pay for it and I think what’s really interesting is that historically customers have been very disengaged in terms of where their powers come from and for proper years and years we’ve kind of not really worried there’s a lectricity bill maybe it goes out my DD account as long as I can switch the lights when they work that’s fine and as i can tell you my gas cooker on again it works i think one of the things that there are various things coming together now that are beginning to get people’s awareness and the key thing is the price of energy i think the price of energy we talked to some social housing organizations who are really concerned that the price of energy is going to exceed the rents they charge their tenants and this is a real kind of change for people that suddenly the hat social housing market can control and look after the housing they can’t control the prices their tenants are having to pay for the energy to heat those sites and i think this is a real change about i think we’re getting much more the headlines that are going out and you begin to hit the front pages which we i would say that’s a build up over the last five years one of the things again though where the power companies i would claim are very cynical is that i’m sure you’ve heard there’s been various reports the news that power prices are going to go up again and gas prices again and go up again and then it says he’s a warming up of the market that’s the kind of make you will feel that it’s going to be normal when they do put that prices up and then whips next year when they announce very large profits oh that was just because it was a cold winter um so there is a lot of language and there’s a lot of manipulation the press as well that people have to understand when they’re looking at this because you’ve got six very large companies who it is their job to make money out of this marketplace and they will do what they need to to do that now it’s not just their talk to be honest because the politicians do have something to do with this they have to take part of the blame and it’s very not easy for politicians and particularly civil servants to only talk to six people if you have to do a consultation at see you only need to chat six is much easier he had to talk to all these nightmares small players who could have probably disagree with everybody else and want to change the way things work that’s a real hassle and so so the market really has been always that we’ve got large centralized players dominated by large sex and actually it’s a lot easier if you have lady politicians they don’t really want I can talk to anybody else it just want a nice life and to get on and make the policies that make them the headlines and we’ve got two policies going through at the moment which I’ve put the acronyms up there and one is called the electricity market reform the biggest market reform at in my small brackets since the last market reform we had um this market reform is basically making the market more complicated now anybody who has ever run a business or just just in general life when things get more complicated people who have less resources tend not to get involved it’s a bit like a video tape recorder the more it’s complicated it gets the less people are going to use it in terms of timing and setting this clock and everything like that and it’s exactly the same in this market the more complicated it gets the easier is for the big six to make their lives easy something called the retail market reform which is this be recorded okay well I can’t say that um but essentially the retail market reform is was put in place to slap one of the large six against their particular predatory pricing and what we’re seeing is actually they’re going to affect all of us because they couldn’t actually enforce the regulator kundan forces correctly so we’re seeing another market form that’s going to make that market more complicated as well and none of these reforms help small players none of these performs help more people get into this marketplace and create give the ability for individuals to actually start to make some of the decisions about where their energy comes from and how much they pay 400 and and finally one of the things um we did some work on recently was really where it comes from and I think we sort of grown up or I definitely grew up the story of North Sea oil and gas and being something that is British and it’s great and we have lots of it and it’s fine don’t worry pat you on the head um I think one of the things that’s quite interesting is that nearly sixty percent

of our energy is now imported and I think that’s something there’s a silent revolution that very people people understand is that actually over the last five years we’ve had to start importing gas and oil we import nuclear fuel and and all these things just go by the boys slightly quietly under the carpet and when we talk to people about this about 71 percent of people who are concerned about where our energy comes from and it’s did a good reason to because a lot of the entity that we bring into the country not all of it comes from politically slightly difficult areas of the world and generally we have to reinforce our security to be able to bring those paper forms of energy so I think going forward is that we have to really consider what we want out of our energy market and actually individuals have to become part of this not just individuals smaller companies smaller communities now there is one good thing but government has managed to do and I think they kind of did it by mistake actually and actually when they found out the mistake they made they then try to reverse the policy they they put in place I don’t know whether anybody has ever heard of something called the feed-in tariff it was a policy that was put in place really to try and support small individuals to start to look at their homes and start to install renewable energy and feeding to us worth a bit of a mess um they actually put the task very high and then put a budget on it and then run out of money effective think that’s kind of what happened but in the meantime they have created 350,000 new entrants in the energy market will have 350,000 people now generating their own people energy in their homes which they weren’t before and I think that’s a really interesting kind of small revolution that is going on in the terms that those people would never engage with the energy market before those people never actually could never got close enough to their energy really to care about and what we did is we did a recent survey and I can’t remember the exact numbers but the majority of people have changed their behavior as a result of installing solar panels on their roof and the reason they’ve changed their behaviors they now care where it comes from they can see where it comes from and when they switching their lights they can look at the meter and whether it’s going in nor whether it’s coming out and I think this is this is a really interesting phenomena I’m not saying that the way to convert the whole of the UK to worry about whether energy comes from has to put solar panels on the roof but it’s a really interesting catalyst to start this process of getting more engagement in energy market and taking the power away from people who are making the decisions that perhaps we don’t want me to make um one of the really interesting parts we see is the social housing market getting involved particularly in soda and then it’s anecdotal but one of the lower social housing or occupants have to pay to do something called a prepayment meter and anybody who’s ever had a prepayment release it will know that you have to pay a lot more if you have a prepayment meter so as paradoxical because people who can afford it least have to pay more and and so and but also they know very much has much they spend because they top it up maybe once a week or once every two weeks and the evidence has been is that a lot of that social housing tenants where these these panels have been installed are serving up to 600 pounds a year as a result they’re not getting a neo give the feed-in tariff this is purely on an energy point of view and that is amazing that you can begin to actually deal with some of the issues around for your poverty as well as dealing with some of the other issues they’re related to climate change and security on a long-term basis so I’m not saying that solar is the only answer but it’s a really interesting example of where people can take that the power one of the other areas i think my personal view is that everybody if everybody knew when they use their energy however it was on and if their phone told them your your current central heating is currently on while they were sitting on the bus they would probably switch it off um I reckon you could probably save about ten to fifteen percent of energy across the UK if we got decent and thermostats installed and that means thumbs that most people in program I don’t know about anybody else here i have a thermostat that is inside the cupboard and i can’t actually get to it and then when i go through all the menus there then get lost i end up just switching it off because i can’t i can’t program it properly and i think that this is I mean I switch up the whole system I just do with that what any any heating in that particular part of the house and I think this is such a such a simple thing yet we can’t do it and there’s about technology change but it’s also about government’s own right all so much that should be easy and they should be programmable and they should be up to date and anybody who has a new boiler and place should have one of these so there’s some really simple things that we could make such dramatic changes with and it’s about allowing different people into this market place allowing people because you customers to be proper customers not just on the outside and I

think this is kind of we this is a bit of our mantra and probably get very boring about it and if you ever come across any good energy people down the pub you might want to go home okay see if they carry on saying it a lot but it is about understanding energy getting people to not just consider its kilowatt hours and nothing to do with them it is about valuing it more and using it less because actually in the long term from from the point of view of what the the new market will look like in my view energy company shouldn’t be supplying energy they should be supplying services we shouldn’t we shouldn’t be we should be facilitating somebody generating their own power exporting it to their next their neighbor and buying it off their next-door neighbor when they haven’t got enough that that’s what we should be doing we shouldn’t have to invest in huge systems and this is really about a decentralized vision for the future this is about having power generation all over the country and there may be some people who might disagree with me on that point and they there’s various and rural guardians and who have issues with that but i think it is truly right that we should move our energy too close to where we need to use it and in the southwest here based in bristol we have some of the best resources in the country we have solar we have wind we have rain and we have some of the best tides in this class of the country as well so all of those become together to make the whole of the Southwest autonomous and power basically and that’d be amazing we were exporting to London anyway it’s just a possibility and it’s about taking the power away from these guys who I did take one photograph at because I quite like the other one but so I said I wouldn’t personally embarrass him and but they are the big six um and giving it to these guys who can generate their own power why shouldn’t they become their own energy supply why do we have to just have six of us why can’t we have 350,000 why can’t we have a million energy suppliers in the UK and that before and finally it’s also about sort of not necessarily just doing it in your home base this this this site is them I don’t know what everybody’s been to West more wind farm near swindon just on the outskirts Swindon it’s a community-owned wind farm and in fact of anybody I think they’re having an open day on the twenty-third of gene they’re going to be they’ve just built a solar park and they’re going to be opening up the investment in that zone apart to the local community and that’s another form it’s not just about doing it yourself it’s about possibly investing in your cell phone and seeing it in much wider context and we buy the power from this site so we see ourselves as a facilitator in this but in the future I think communities businesses individuals should be generating their own power you shouldn’t be looking to somebody else to make the decisions in terms of how the investments work and we should start making those decisions ourselves Thank You Juliet will now take some questions and answers I’m sitting this wonderful throne today which which kind of makes me feel some all-powerful so it says my house rules which is 15 seconds for questions five seconds four points think about that anybody who mentions Italy Croatia score even inadvertently will be automatically disqualified I think there are some roving mics I’m thinking that there are yes there are so we’ll try and take will try to take things in batches of three see how that that works out so first questions gentlemen in the green shirt there lady at the back the grey and gentlemen the yellow shirt in the yellow shirt and lady in the back okay hello Andy Kent what do you believe is the solution to the green and community sectors becoming increasingly dependent on unpaid labor and the hardships and financially unsustainable conditions that result thank you and yep gentlemen and if you get to microphone across I’d like to take up Deborah readings point the contrast between the time horizons of family-run firms versus the short-termism of corporate managers and ask all three of you whether you see any prospects in the next few years of reforms of corporate governance that might change the time horizons of top management thank you hi yeah I’ve found started a campaign on Twitter could ask the question my question to you is and what can we as consumers do the the

campaign is all about asking basic questions of retailers those in hospitality private transport companies etc thank you thank you three great questions thank you I’ll start with the first one green community sector an unpaid labor he wants to go first on this Andrew I don’t mind I don’t mind chipping in really because it speaks to a much bigger issue about the way in which the formal economy the one through which all the cash flows I have a problem about the way in which it sits on an unacknowledged foundation of what we like to call the core economy and that’s all the unpaid work that goes on in the home and in the community all the work that goes on that actually makes life convivial and worth living it’s it’s also on the unacknowledged foundation of environmental resources which in strict accounting terms are treated as free income to the economy I think the future actually ironically in one sense might be a continuation of the past and that we’ve argued when we’ve looked built our own econometric models of how you end up with a truly sustainable economy there’s a couple of variables in that that give you some room for manoeuvre one is through rethinking productivity and the other one is through the length of the working week and I think if we had a sort of social settlement if you like a social contract in which much of the work which is unacknowledged under valued was more acknowledged and valued and we designed our society in such a way that it was supported we could all move to a shorter working week in which we could do more stuff for ourselves come back to your point over here have to spend less time running around buying stuff and services that other people do for us and move towards the nature of the transition economy in the golden old green economic vision of repair reduce reuse recycle so I think we need to turn it around we need to kind of invert it and make create a society in which we is the old cliché isn’t it who goes to their grave saying I wish I’d spent more time at the office and I’d quite like to spend more time not necessarily being paid but being able to poor myself thank you they will go to the next question I mean which I find a fascinating question around what is it that you can do to actually kind of help companies look more to the long term what what may be in the incentives or the culture that’s formed can actually kind of promote that Deborah have you got thoughts on that well it’s interested thank you well it’s interesting I’ve actually always use bone awful word bonuses but I’ve always used bonus structures within any business that I work with but they are long term bonuses so you can earn nominal bonuses today provided in the future that that in three years or five years whatever it is these conditions exist but the thing about bonuses and the big danger is when they are just about financial results because every bonus I’ve ever put together the financial results are never more than thirty percent of the bonus you’ve got to look to customers our customers happy with us you’ve got to look to with people working the organization are those people happiness happy with us and I actually think there’s some quite simple fixes I worry it in things like bonuses I worry about it being driven by legislation and governance because exactly Julia I could not the point you made about making things complicated just means that people really don’t to engage with them they become a complete chore is so true if you put too much corporate governments in people just get fed up with it I like a grand swell from the people wanting to do the right thing feeling that that is better and understanding the whole legacy point and I think that if people then and managers themselves start saying we need to come up with a structure that is more long-term then I think the grand swell approach is going to be better than legislation or governance think it might want to bring Juliet in here because Juliet them in Europe you’ve built up a business it’s it’s owned by shareholders but it’s got its got a different relationship where are you long that that journey and I think it’s very interesting it trying to work out exactly what we do and how you might be able to replicate that in another business I mean I think the first thing we started off was a very clear vision of what we’re trying to do um we believe that climate change is dangerous and we believe we should do something about it that that’s actually the core vision of the company so that we test everything

we do against that and I suppose first of all it makes decision-making very easy actually both short-term and long-term so you can work out what not to do because actually when you start a business particularly in quite an exciting sector lots of opportunities come towards you so it can it can help in in not just the sort of long-term vision but also in terms of getting you started keeping you focused and working out what you were actually going to do um I think then you try and build that I mean you could put it into the articles i suppose in terms of when you set up a company if you wanted to preserve that but obviously articles can be changed I think Debra’s right I think building that into the culture of the business so that oh I found over time it is I think probably hiring people is one of the most difficult things you do in a business and I’ve found over time that if you put the wrong people in who don’t have the culture of that business or don’t have the ability to change the culture of it as they get rejected they kind of leave and actually if you build into the culture of the business from the beginning which the DNA is set by whoever sets up the business if you build that very strongly and make sure you build in kind of that in terms of how you hire people then it naturally forms itself and I think if you have a strong vision and then you put that through in terms of who you bring into the business that will actually bring them through naturally it’s great thank you maybe just to go through the panel in terms of that last question what can we as consumers do what do you think is maybe the most powerful intervention that we as consumers citizens can can have on business in a moment I would simply say do what excites you because if you do what excites you your own actions will endure and you’ll inspire other people you know obviously this has been in the frame of you know trying to do good green stuff as it were as this is the big green week but within the frame of what we’re talking about is whatever really touches you and gets you up in the morning and yawns I mean my viewers you should set up your own business if you really want to do something I personally think that’s an incredibly I mean the whole point about good energy was to set up a commercial business it was scalable and can prove the concept so take what you’re trying to do and put it into the business because then more people are going to copy and and actually you can inspire other people to do that I also completely agree Vangie Idzik you should do what you enjoy doing as well I mean one of the things I love doing is coming to work I really love coming to work it’s so exciting and sometimes it’s exciting the wrong way but but but sometimes most of time it’s exciting a good way and and that spills through in terms of the whole business and and it is exciting I love working it’s great i think i think w might have some pictures for business on the back of that so any thoughts yeah I I always say never underestimate a actions speak louder than words but never under mr. I love what you’re doing there because never underestimate the power of words and I always say if you care about something voice it I I love my husband when he goes to the supermarket he up stands at the till he unpacks takes all of the plastic that he didn’t ask for and he certainly didn’t pay for and he stands at the head of a long queue and he unpacks it and he tells them I didn’t ask for that and I’m gonna leave it here that type of action if ever you’re feeling powerless do you know just say or do something can you just let us know what shop he goes to and I’ll make it what I’m not going there when I’m fairness he’s been banned from most fantastic we’ll take another round of a few questions we’ll take a gentleman over there in the blue shirt gentleman at the back and lady at the front and rich Schumacher wrote his book didn t about small is beautiful and I was trying to apply that to business and I can see that small scale business can be sustainable conserve the local community doesn’t have to grow but international business globalized business I can’t see ever becoming sustainable I like your comments please thank you gentlemen at-bat you know thank you and over the last few decades and quite a bit of the public sector in the mutual sector been moved to the private sector and quite a lot of the private sector has been moved to ever more distant shareholders and sovereign wealth funds and venture capitalists and is there where we can actually bring it back to things we can influence and control or things that are and purposeful in terms of social enterprises and community enterprises

thank you and lady at the front of you get a microphone Carla denia I’m interested in your three amber our ability to change things so the three of you have quite unusual values or attitude for the errors you’re in energy industry economics and entrepreneurial business and in your areas do you feel like an outsider or an insider or straddling the boundary and how do you think the others in your area of you you is it the same thank you let’s start with small is beautiful and maybe and return to you first because it seems like in the recent book that’s that there is something around sort of the big corporation and does it necessarily mean that as you grow you go bad or on if and if so or if not what would the what would probably this or the immunity to that thank you yeah and I am I suppose I should admit on record as having been not very nice about the UK’s largest supermarket Tesco on on a few occasions and linking to the third question about how we are seen in that particular sector I think not very fragrant Lee would be the with the answer to that and from the perspective of the work that Neff has done on on local economies and we’ve run an awful lot of sort of peer-to-peer micro and small enterprise coaching which has been sort of enormously successful we have a view we definitely have a view that resilient economies are diverse that they have a lot of small players we have a view that the nature and the shape of the way that a business does business carries with it a kind of self-replicating DNA for the community it finds itself in and to use that example of take a very large major supermarket compared with am genuinely independent and locally owned stores what you find is different things happen when you spend money in one compared to another when you spend money in a January local store that money is more likely to feed into other small local businesses is more likely to stick in the local economy and end your and expand and benefit local people you also find that the business models that differently and the customer interactions between the big supermarkets and the smaller stores I mean I know from having researched it that the big the big retailers you have a bit of a standard script on the checkout there’s only a certain amount of interaction you can have with someone there’s a kind of social glue that comes with the more rooted businesses and local businesses also a lot of research has shown that in difficult times they’re more likely to hang around is not the first moment that the demographics don’t hit what the shareholders expect their own up sticks and go they have a different kind of relationship to the local place and of course the other way in which it matters is in terms of the sensor place and identity that local places have that people might have seen some reports that we did at never called clone Towne Britain will be charted the way in which in a creeping way of the last you decades in many circumstances you can stand on any high street in Britain and you might be on any other high street in Britain we think this really matters because it’s about quality of life as well so from an economic point of view from a social glue and glue and community cohesion point of view and from a distinctiveness and sense of place point of view and resilience I I think it’s very important and I think there is a paradox of the way that the market operates that the more sort of aggressive a market economy you have the more you need the checks and balances to prevent suffocating dominating monopolies from emerging now the regulator itself the competition commission has pointed out the way of retail is concerned you know above eight percent market share you get abusive power along the supply chain I think we need checks and balances in order precisely to keep markets open so that small players can flourish for all those reasons Juliet in terms of your business it’s it’s growing and we all kind of probably in the room want to see the sustainability leaders sort of to grow and flourish what what are your thoughts in terms of you know dude is that an issue it keeps you up at night in terms of would you ever kind of go off track as you got bigger I think that’s very interesting and only one of the difficulties about growing in our sector is I had to take customers off somebody else so I’m not creating something new so in a way so that the energy market is weirdly sustainable because you caught you caught you’re not necessary ting new customers we’re just taking customers away from other people so in terms of me growing I feel quite happy about that because it means I’m converting more people from an unsustainable company to a more sustainable company and will we get to a point when we we can’t grow anymore and growing well yes that’s when

Britain’s 100% renewable so as far as I’m concerned that would be pretty good so I yeah I mean I don’t have much of a problem with the growth ok but yeah I mean I think what is interesting they’re coming to the test coast piece is that i saw tara lee he talks i was trying to see whether there was anything interesting he didn’t say very much interesting today she wasn’t allowed to um but the only thing he did say which was very interesting is and I think kind of part of this economic situation we’re in at the moment is a readjustment I think it’s a partial resources readjustment is that all they’re out of town shops are doing very badly at the moment because of the price of petrol not because they’re doing bad because Tesco’s because people can’t afford to drive to their stores anymore and I think that we will be it’s not it’s not ideal but we’re beginning to get a shift in the economy anyhow and the sustainability of even large companies is going to come to being more resilient and having other other ways of actually doing it and just going for large growth with large as of ten MiG’s isn’t going to work so I think everybody’s good and my personal view is the business model of the big six and the energy market is broken they just haven’t worked it out yet and at some point they will begin to realize there’s more people generate their own power they are going to become a service company not a supply company and I think that hasn’t clicked it really hasn’t got home yet and it’s coming hopefully they’ll come up behind them and they won’t notice and then it will be too late yeah sure I think the key for big organ are the successful big organizations remember that there’s small organizations only bigger and those are the ones you’ve got to be fleet of foot and those are the ones who will grab market convinced of it I’m instead of just going to the next question and maybe Deborah starting with you I mean there are certainly there is this kind of transition and you said in your piece around through the family business as compared to businesses which have got so big that the shareholders will they’re not really engage they don’t really they’re not very present the managers move on every few years are not really engaged and despite the fact that that we’d like to see sort of the the new players the new young ideas kind of thrive these big players are around so can they ever really turn can you ever really turn the direction round for for something which is so large I think you can and that really I go back to something I was talking about which is I was really heartened to hear to see people within these big organizations wanting to find the thing that they could do to engage um so I actually thought I think there’s a lot of businesses out there that are in shock you know things have the unthinkable has happened they are being forced to to reconsider the way they are working and you know there will be some Luddites a lot of them you know be a lot of people trying to get back to the way it was before that’s not right it was broken that’s why it broke you know that’s why it doesn’t work so it is a it’s a fun we have really got a moment here to be up where people are actually being forced to revisit and rethink and in that they are inc they are finding themselves engaging because when you have to rethink you have to talk you have to think you have to speak amongst it what what went wrong what do we do wrong and in that communication in that talking a whole re-engagement just starts happening it feels quite intangible and sometimes I feel like I’m speaking unusually for me wishy washy words you know it’s not not things i usually use very often but it is very true the power of people talking to each other saying this hasn’t worked this has got to change and suddenly it becomes something it starts being words and it ends up being something and I think big organizations which are in shock are embracing it they have to the other part of that second question was was also around sort of the the public accountability aspect and something which we see at the moment is is this sort of new relationship between public sector and private sector andrew wonder if you have any sort of views in terms of how can that be done in a healthy way that is a and it’s a very good it’s a very good question and it’s a very big question i think ultimately and what are things which nefas worked on a lot over the years is finding different ways to measure and evaluate the real contribution of different kinds of economic activity and I think when only win this game ultimately by by moving the goalposts a bit and Alec as I said earlier we’ve had the language of triple bottom-line accounting for a long time

and yet in reality on a day-to-day basis that that doesn’t that doesn’t exist and one thing would be about realigning some of the reward and incentive structures and we use a technique for example called social return on investment where we try to capture the social environmental value as well as the kind of strike profit of any particular activity an interesting thing happening things happen when when you do that and just to give you a little bit of a flavor and how that might speak to the kind of the public private and coming together we compared some different professions we looked at children’s nursery workers at recycling workers and Hospital cleaners on the one hand and compared them with tax accountants city finances and indeed and advertising executives and we looked at and we measured the kind of social environmental value of the different professions and what we found generally speaking that where the nursery recycling and hospital cleaners were concerned there was a broad return of about or averaged around about ten to one the amount that they were paid for the value that they created more broadly for society the story was not quite the same where the bankers and the tax accountants and the advertising managers were concerned the the the bankers and the advertising managers there was an inverse relationship of about one to ten value destroyed broader value destroyed worst of all I’m afraid to say was the the tax accountant which comes to the the third question that was raised or second question was raised about about about tax havens because you know tax has got a bad reputation in one sense everybody says if you don’t like paying it but on another level it’s always been the price you pay for civilization and there is a huge problem with money leaking out of the system and trading in far too few hands and it is utterly and entirely within the wit of governments to change that that’s all I’ll say about it might not be within my power it is utterly and entirely within the power of governments to change that situation thank you one of the observations I have is that i think i’d share with people here is that is that you’re all great speakers and so that final that third question was was sort of a question of hope in terms of what influence you can have on peers in the mainstream Julia how is it with the with the big six CEOs and and how does that relationship changed over the years and i would say up to about probably about 12 months ago there wasn’t any relationship whatsoever i mean i think the big six CEOs probably didn’t notice anybody else i think what’s really interesting is I think the groundswell of I’m not quite so it’s not quite hatred but but they they feel very unloved by their customers these days which is hardly surprising and they they don’t out of the custom which customer survey that was recently run and the small seven asthma called came top and the big six came the bottom I’m good energy also came top that’s why I mention it but i think it’s it’s a really interesting point is that they realize that they can’t get away with it anymore and they’re having to engage and and be seen to be engaging so i actually got invited i’ve been invited to dinner recently with minister and the big six and it is it is an extraordinary extraordinary experience its asset of almost out of worldly experience and and and first of all you realize they none of them agree with each other they don’t really like each other and which I suppose isn’t that surprising but you kind of put them all in the same bag they’ve all got their own insecurities and they’ve all got their idiosyncrasies because they all come from different countries and I I would say they’re beginning to listen now and I think they realize that sort of politically they can’t block this market anymore mainly because they haven’t got the balance sheet to actually invest they’ve got probably fifty percent of the balance sheet that is required to make the investment that needs to keep the lights on for the next 20 years so so they there are going to have to be new entrance in and buy their having to engage in that process and how that’s going to happen and and so I suppose we’ve seen a shift I’m not sure how they see me personally I probably slightly annoying and why is she speaking now again um that they see they shake my hands occasionally that’s good Deborah as sheer curiosity did you ever have conversations with Duncan Bannatyne Theo fetus about sustainability well I did and is where here’s where there’s hope when I first joined drug I’ve been as I think I’ve been in drag about six years and I can’t remember something came on the den that was that was I know know what I’m not going to go into it but it was so it was a good idea not too well

executed and I kept saying why I think it’s you know this is of the future and they just thought I was loopy you know they just thought those come on but the fantastic thing is in the last six years um you know Theo has has been working with a carbon trust and you know they’re completely without there wasn’t a moment where they all suddenly changed but they’ve just evolved and and I just think I feel like if there’s a panel of six business people from very wide ranges of businesses who started off thinking what is she or going on about and now actually you know uh are in there competing in the den with me on on sustainable businesses i’m a bit annoyed actually no i’m not imax it i’m actually delighted um i think also my position home business isn’t one thing it’s i’m not in the energy industry i can’t so I don’t compete with somebody in their particular you know so there aren’t a group of people who do what I do thinking or whatever I don’t really I don’t really want her to you know get under our skin or aura orem agitators which I hope you do very well I’m sure you do um so it’s not competitive in that way and therefore i get a sense of people feeling like well here’s somebody we can talk to who’s in business who will understand the things that we want to do but the barriers with feeling our way and that is the general sense that I get I really don’t get much you know people always open their doors and are happy to have the conv conversation and there is a general puzzlement over you know where the economy as it is and I’m worried about things that I’m worried about my business have I honestly got the time and the resource to do this and spending a bit of time chatting with them they generally have that’s great I think actually on the basis of that’s such an I sort of an uplifting and natural kind of time to draw things to close that that’s where we’ll leave the questions and answers I think one of the observations that I’ve got is is from the question from the lady there around sort of what we can do it is really about having the conversations that businesses are all just full of people and people are the only people are the only things that you’re ever going to change things it’s been real pleasure to hear from our speakers I’d like to thank them in the normal way Deborah Meaden andrew sims to their gun ports you