E Cigarette Webinar featuring CASAA's Executive Director Julie Woessner and Scott Ballin

0:00:00 Bob Engel: Hi I’d like to welcome everybody to the Fourth Edition of E-Cigs DeMISTified My name is Bob Engel I’m the Customer Service Manager here at White Cloud As always, we have a great panelist of presenters this afternoon Today, we’ll be joined by the Executive Director of CASAA, Julie Woessner, and a Public Health Consultant with 40 years experience, Scott Ballin And I’d like to thank both of them for taking the time to be with us today, and I’d also like to thank all of you for taking the time to attend our webinar this afternoon 0:00:28 BE: So we have a good amount of time built in for questions and answers in this webinar, so please feel free to send us any questions that you have To do so, all you have to do is click the Q&A button on the screen there and just ask away So we will have a short Q&A with each speaker after their initial discussion and then a longer Q&A at the end of the webinar So if for some reason we don’t get a chance to get to your question, we will certainly answer all the questions via email after the close of the webinar So let’s jump right into things here Our first speaker today is Julie Woessner, Executive Director of CASAA Julie, thank you so much for joining us today 0:01:02 Julie Woessner: Well, thank you for having me 0:01:04 BE: Great Well, we’ll just jump right into questions here Can you give us a little bit of background about CASAA? What’s the main focus? 0:01:11 JW: Sure Well, CASAA is a 501 [c] [4] nonprofit Our main focus is consumer advocacy We’re not an industry group We don’t represent industry interests We’ve got about 130,000 members and our numbers are growing every day and we have people from all walks of life, all socioeconomic backgrounds, just everything And really, like I said, we focus on consumer advocacy which involves issuing calls to action, letting consumers know how they can get involved in these matters And I guess last year, we issued about 200 calls to action local alerts 0:01:49 BE: Wow! I mean that’s, over 100,000 people, that’s quite a register you have there Now, is it a mixture of smokers and non-smokers or is it primarily people who have smoked traditional tobacco? 0:02:00 JW: Actually, our membership is made up of mostly people who are using a tobacco harm reduction product And that includes e-cigarettes but also smokeless tobacco I would say 99% of our membership are vapers Some of them continue to smoke but most of them have either dramatically reduced or completely eliminated their smoking habit 0:02:24 BE: Oh wonderful And Julie, what attracted you to working with CASAA? 0:02:29 JW: Well, I was a smoker And I was a smoker for more than 30 years, more than two packs a day And I’m a little bit ashamed to admit that towards the end, I was climbing up to three packs a day And I had tried repeatedly to quit over the years and my last serious quit attempt was with Chantix And that was rather disastrous And after that, I just quit trying to quit I gave up I said, “I’m gonna resign myself to living and dying as a smoker.” And when I found e-cigarettes, it was back in 2009, the very begin Actually it was the end of 2008, but they seemed like probably a gimmick It never really occurred to me that they’d be a legit product But I thought, I’m gonna pick it up because maybe I can fool myself into cutting back And that’s all I really wanted to do was just cut back And if I’d been able to cut back to like two packs a day, I would have been thrilled Instead I found that within three days, I completely made the switch from smoking to vaping And that’s the kind of thing that’s pretty miraculous and makes you a true believer and you get pretty passionate 0:03:37 JW: CASAA was formed with people like me, people who are very passionate about it And they were formed in 2009, and I was an active member And then I just became more and more involved I just loved the consumer focus, the relentless attention to honesty, and the legislative advocacy, so I joined the board in 2012 and that’s where I am 0:04:06 BE: Well, thank you for the background there, Julie And my next question was asking if you are currently a vaper, but it sounds like you are vaping and are successful on that journey 0:04:14 JW: Absolutely 0:04:15 BE: Fantastic I have a similar story there too After about a week of working with the company, I had moved away from traditional tobacco entirely So let me ask you another question here, Julie CASAA has a lot of calls to action right now Is there one that stands out over the others for you? 0:04:30 JW: Well, of course, we’ve got the HR 2058, but I anticipate we’ll probably be getting into that in a little bit But actually, the call to action that’s sticking out most in my mind is one that we haven’t even issued yet and that’s for Georgia Georgia’s getting ready to face some pretty nasty battle right now We’ve got some legislation that was introduced yesterday that is very similar to Indiana And for those who are familiar with the Indiana legislation, this is just a different shade of lipstick on the pig

It’s pretty much the same thing and it’s the vapor overregulation and manufacturing licensing standards that will basically be a de facto ban on out-of-state liquids in Georgia And we’ll be issuing a call to action on that within the next day or two 0:05:22 JW: And then the other one is Chicago That call to action has ended, but we’re getting ready to issue a new one And Chicago is really a very awful situation because they passed this extraordinary tax Between Cook County and Chicago, we’re looking at $0.75 per milliliter which is having the effect of shuttering doors Businesses are closing, businesses are moving, which is bad for consumers of course But in addition, The Department of Public Health in Chicago has embarked on a misinformation campaign that is pretty frightening, so we’ll be issuing a call to action on that, encouraging people to share their concerns about that 0:06:04 BE: Wonderful And I’m glad to hear that you’re taking action on that, Julie Now going back to HR 2058, it’s an important piece of legislation that has been introduced by Representative Tom Cole of Oklahoma, and can you speak for a minute about HR 2058? 0:06:18 JW: Well, sure I’m guessing that most people who are listening to this webinar are familiar with the Deeming, FDA Deeming And what will happen is when the FDA deems e-cigarettes as a tobacco product, it’s going to create, I hate to use the word again, de facto, but that’s exactly what is A de facto ban on all products that weren’t on the market as of the grandfather date They’re gonna have to go through a hugely expensive, very uncertain, very difficult type of pre-market approval process if you weren’t on the market as of the grandfather date The grandfather date is February 15th 2007 So any product that’s come on to the market since then, is not protected, it’s not grandfathered What the Cole Bill does is it moves the grandfather date to the date that the Deeming Regulations become final, which will be some future date, probably fairly soon And it’s not a perfect solution, but at least it ensures that the products that are currently on the market will remain on the market and will still be subject to FDA regulation There’ll still be rules, but we’re not going to be completely shut out of the market 0:07:35 BE: Thank you for that, Julie Yeah, it seems like the 2007 grandfather date is before the majority of E-Cig products were even on the market 0:07:42 JW: All of them 0:07:42 BE: Yes [laughter] 0:07:44 JW: Pretty much Yeah There were some very early e-cigarettes that were in existence, but we’ve not found any that were actually marketed in the US within the definition of marketing And it’s also even if there were a product that had been on the market, it would have been such an ineffective Anybody who’s listening to this webinar who’s an early adopter knows exactly what I mean Those devices were pretty wretched And so it’s not really going to be useful for us 0:08:18 BE: Yeah And Julie, if HR 2058 does not pass, what other options do we have for challenging this grandfather date? 0:08:25 JW: Well, we’re looking into various options and we’re working with other groups Most of the options are legislative It’s very difficult to bring pressure to bear on FDA Congress is kind of their boss, and so that’s where we go FDA’s authority all stems from Congress Congress gave them the authority to institute all of this nonsense, so back to Congress we go It may wind up that at the end of the day this is going to be settled in the courts And we’ve seen the court battles before In fact, we had that back in 2009, 2010 0:09:06 BE: Yep Well Julie, you see so much E-Cig regulation that’s coming out currently What trends, if any, are you seeing and does anything stand out to you? 0:09:15 JW: There are a number of trends, although some of these Well, the first one is Tobacco 21 And Tobacco 21 is something that started at the local level in the city councils and the county councils And the idea was to raise the age to purchase tobacco products to 21 in an effort to delay, or hopefully prevent youth initiation of tobacco products The problem is though that they’re catching Well, regardless of what you think about adult ages 18 to 20 who can serve in the military, not being able to purchase tobacco products, the fact is that they’re catching up paper products and low risk smokeless products in the East T21 laws

And we’re seeing these now get introduced in the Well, certainly, in the major metropolitan areas now at the state level 0:10:12 JW: So that’s gonna be the new battle ground, T21 The taxes, of course, those are gonna be with us always Congress, not Congress actually, the state legislators are often times looking to plug budget deficits And they kind of see us as an easy target, and they fail to understand that anything they do to make these products more expensive is damaging from a public health standpoint And especially when you consider that the majority of smokers come from low economic situations where they don’t have a whole lot of money So poor people are overly represented in the smoking populations So to a make low risk alternative to smoking less accessible to those people is pretty morally unjustifiable 0:11:10 JW: We’re also seeing legislation such as what I was talking about in Georgia, where the states are trying to impose some sort of regulatory framework on e-cigarettes, and this is concerning from a number of standpoints particularly because we’re concerned about having a patch work of different rules in different states So, for example, if State A requires a certain specific label for their products, that makes it difficult because people will have to comply with that ship in and manufacturers from out of state aren’t going to be in a position to come up with 50 different labels for 50 different states In this practical matter, they’re just gonna stop shipping products in And I think that’s Well, there’s always tons of stuff, but those are kind of the main issues that we’re seeing right now 0:12:02 BE: Great Thank you for the overview on that, Julie Now CASAA’s testimonial project has generated more than 7,900 testimonials, does CASAA have any goals with this project? 0:12:12 JW: Well, yeah Okay, so first off, this is a project that is near and dear to my heart Part of my job is every day I go in and read the testimonials and approve them, and they are just so powerful And when we first started collecting them, we really didn’t have much in the way of goals The idea was just to collect in one place Anybody who’s on the Internet sees testimonials all over the place and we thought, “We’re gonna start collecting them here in this one place, so that people can share their stories.” And overtime, we’ve realized that it’s even more powerful than we thought so we’re trying to work a change to our collection format so that for example we can track and report information based on state of residency And that would allow, for example, if you’re an advocate in Texas, you can wink to the testimonials and say, “Well, you can look at these 1,000 testimonials from people in Texas,” but that’s something that’s gonna take us a while We’re not going to be able to, unfortunately, deal with the ones that have already been submitted The information on that has been collected 0:13:24 JW: But these testimonials are being used for legislative advocacy and we keep hearing reports of legislators being actually really surprised and informed when they read the testimonials because they keep hearing, “These do not work for smoking cessation There is no proof that e-cigarettes work They’re just anecdotes.” Well, the more anecdotes you get at some point, they’re going to have to understand that this is not a one-off thing, and it really is working for thousands if not millions of people I can’t hear you? 0:14:04 BE: I’m sorry about that, Julie Oh, I was gonna say, for every anecdote you collect, eventually it develops a trend and you have to see that trend developing It’s hard not to feel pessimistic about E-Cig regulation, when see so much misinformation out there, can you share with us some success stories that CASAA has had? 0:14:21 JW: Sure Most of the successes that we’ve had are probably successes that you wouldn’t publicly see For example, stopping some bad legislation in its track, working with other groups CASAA is always working cooperatively with other advocacy organizations The other thing is there was a story that, I think it was last year, it was one of those awful rat studies where they came out with some study that said, “Cocaine leads to smoking,” I think it was Hold on, I wanna make sure that I get this right because it was so awful and so egregious

that it was frightening But anyway, yeah, I don’t see it in my notes But in any event, we had heads up on the story and we worked hard behind the scenes with others in order to blunt the effect of it before it even came out, and we found that it wasn’t even really picked up on the major media too much And the other success that we’ve had is the fact that if you look, really we’ve been remarkably successful again working with others and limiting the bad legislation We’ve defeated several taxes in several states and really have been successful in that regard But more than anything, it’s putting out accurate information so that our people, our consumers, can fight back against the misinformation 0:15:56 BE: Great Thank you for that, Julie Now, what are some things that the e-cigarette consumer should be doing to help ensure their ability to vape? 0:16:03 JW: Well, obviously join CASAA I think that’s probably the biggest one because that hooks you into the advocacy network so that we can contact you when an issue comes up that you can take action on, and we help you try to provide a way for you to easily advocate for yourself And of course, CASAA membership is free and we never share our email The other thing too that’s really important is for people to register to vote and then vote And it seems like such a “duh-uh” type of concept voting, but it really is important It’s important that legislators start to understand that vapers vote We’re passionate about this issue and this is something that is foremost in our mind, if not the most important thing, one of the most important things that we consider when we’re casting our vote 0:17:03 JW: So you need to register to vote and then you need to vote And it’s also important to have conversations with your legislators, your elected officials, whether it’s a federal state or local, and we strongly suggest that you pull out a piece of paper and a pen and do the old fashioned thing and hand write a letter Those get noticed and you don’t have to provide scientific studies and everything else, you just need to tell your story and explain why this is important and ask your elected representative to help you protect your right to use these low risk products And then the other thing is And this is a little touchy of a subject, but I think it’s important for vapers to remember that all of us are kind of vape ambassadors, if you will 0:17:53 JW: Every time we go out in to public, we’re helping to inform public views on vaping And so personally, I vape in most places but when I’m in a traditionally non-smoking area, I am very polite in how I vape I know that if I’m in a restaurant and I’m blowing huge clouds, that can be a little uncomfortable for those around me It can be frightening ’cause you gotta remember most people, what they know about vaping is what they read in the mainstream media So try to vape discreetly I’m not saying hide it, but if you choose to vape in a non-smoking area, please try to do it in a way that minimizes or eliminates visible vapor And we find that that kind of behavior encourages people to ask you questions I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people come up to me and say, “Is that an e-cigarette?” when I’m using it very politely and I say, “Yes.” And like, “Wow, that’s not at all what I expected.” And then we have a conversation and that they walk away feeling informed and pretty supportive of the whole thing as opposed to getting a little angry or upset because they don’t understand what I’m doing and they’re not gonna approach me in a nice way, so those are the main things 0:19:09 BE: Great Speaking about the misinformation that’s out there, is there one e-cigarette myth that you see that just won’t go away? 0:19:17 JW: Well, I don’t know that it’s so much that there’s one myth but it’s kind of like the same ones just keep recirculating At one point, it was the formaldehyde and the anti-freeze And when that gets old, they recycle it with something else So they just have this constant rotation Gateway is a big one and of course our position is e-cigarettes are absolutely a gateway, but it’s a one-way gateway and it’s away from smoking But they’re going to keep trotting that one out And the other one which is really disturbing because we hear it from scientists and doctors who should know better And that is, when they try to equate addiction as the source of harm, in other words “Yeah,

but you’re still addicted to nicotine,” without ever discussing the fact that, “Well, many smokers, they continue to smoke because of the nicotine, but it’s not the nicotine that’s causing the health problems.” It’s lighting something on fire and inhaling the products of combustion So the addiction issue just really isn’t particularly helpful or informative or actually accurate 0:20:28 BE: It seems like they wanna change the conversation to addiction instead of talking about harm reduction and getting people away from a more harmful product Now CASAA has conducted a survey in November and December generating statistics that contradicted several E-Cig research studies out there and can you tell us a little bit about those studies and how the results will be used? 0:20:47 JW: Basically, the results of our survey are blogged and basically we used them We presented the survey results to OIRA when we met with OIRA in December to talk about our concerns about the Deeming Regulations And we’re also in the process of writing them up and submitting them to the FDA in connection with another request for information that they want And we’re going to do our best to get the information out there, so that people can understand that: Number one, these work Number two, adults like flavors And number three, we like a lot of different stuff I think sometimes, especially public health professionals, they’ll look and they’ll say, “Well, Julie, when you were a smoker, you liked your brand of cigarette.” And that’s right I didn’t want anything else In fact, if I couldn’t get the brand that I wanted, it would be, “ugh” and I’d go off and get something else and be very unhappy I just wanted exactly the same thing all the time 0:21:53 JW: And they tend to equate that, the fact that we like tobacco flavor or menthol flavor and always wanting the same thing, they try to extrapolate that out to the vaping without understanding that at some point we become something other than a smoker We become a vaper and the flavors are a huge part of, not only helping a lot of people make a complete transition, but also keeping it interesting and fun and enjoyable because you know what? Tobacco harm reduction doesn’t have to suck It can be enjoyable 0:22:29 BE: Absolutely That’s one thing with the e-cigarettes that we’ve noticed It’s just a great alternative It was such an easy transition personally for myself Now Julie, recently you met with the OMB regarding the Deeming Regulations for electronic cigarettes Tell us a little bit about that meeting such as the tone and how receptive you felt the OMB and FDA were to your comments 0:22:49 JW: Well, I think that we were one of the last meetings that they scheduled and I think that that was deliberate I think they planned on ending at a certain point and they figured we’d be a good place to end as a consumer group And I think they were meetinged out by that point They had been barraged with all sorts of meetings, but they were very respectful and they listened attentively When we came in, we came in with boxes of testimonials We actually printed out We had more than 7,000 at that point We printed all of them out, testimonial per page and we had a stack, I don’t know, there are pictures out there It was an impressive stack and we brought those in to be placed on the record and I think they were impressed with that We were nice though because there was also a little fear because they’re responsible Anything you leave with them, they need to scan into the system and make publicly available and I think they were looking at boxes and boxes and panicking a little bit, but we provided them on a jump drive because we’re nice people [chuckle] 0:23:57 JW: But I think that OIRA is aware of the problems and I think that they do have concerns, but it’s hard to tell where it’s gonna go from here FDA has a lot of authority in this and FDA has not thus far shown itself really terribly willing to be reasonable in these regulations, in my opinion 0:24:20 BE: Well, thank you for that information, Julie We have some questions coming in from the viewers, so we’re gonna run through a few of those and there are questions directly for you now Let’s see here With the new taxes happening, do we have to be more concerned about taxes in our state of residence or in the state that we’re purchasing from online? 0:24:37 JW: Typically, you need to be concerned in Well, you should be concerned about everywhere Because as soon as it pops up in one state, it’s in the next states So I hate the question, but point taken It’s where you live If a business typically doesn’t have a presence in the state where you live and it’s being delivered online, typically you don’t pay a tax on it, so it’s your state of residence

But again, I wanna mention, Indiana was last year, that was an ugly, ugly battle over liquid manufacturing standards and all that and where did it pop up? It’s now in Georgia So this stuff just goes from state to state, nobody should have any comfort 0:25:21 BE: Well, thank you for that, Julie Now another question from a viewer here: How does the two-year grace period relate to the de facto ban? 0:25:29 JW: What the two-year grace period does is it says, “That if you are not grandfathered, you have two years within which to get your application in.” Okay? So that sounds good like maybe we bought two more years but the problem is that we’re just kind of jumping from the frying pan into the fire and the businesses There are gonna be a lot of business that won’t even have any intention of going through the whole process because it’s so expensive, so onerous, so uncertain And by uncertain, I really wanna be clear here If I made a product and I knew that I could pay $1 million to a regulatory agency and I will get approval, then it would be worth it for me to do it if I figure I could get my money back selling the product over time You amortize the cost of that But if the agency says, “Well, give me a million and we’ll see,” we’re gonna get a lot of manufacturers who’re not gonna have any intention of going through the process, and it’s going to be a situation where they’re gonna just try to make as much money as they can in the two years and then start exiting And that’s just devastating for consumers We need businesses that understand that vaping is here to stay and we need to change the grandfather date There’s just 0:26:49 JW: Ideally, what we really should have is an entirely separate regulatory scheme This is just ridiculous nonsense And the whole point of the Tobacco Control Act that we’re caught up into is not regulation of tobacco It was a frank recognition that they didn’t want any more tobacco products They were stuck with what they had, but they didn’t need to let any more on, so this is a process that’s designed to make it virtually impossible for new products to come on to the market, and we just don’t need that So ultimately, we need something else 0:27:22 BE: Right, thank you for that, Julie We have time for one more question from the viewers here and I just wanna remind the viewers if we don’t have time to answer your question, we will respond to those via email after the webinar We have one of our viewers who’s in the state of Oregon and the T21 has just started showing up in their state Is there a good way to fight the T21 there in Oregon? 0:27:40 JW: It’s tough We’re starting to issue calls to action for the T21 stuff It’s difficult because we are a tobacco harm-reduction organization We don’t represent combustible consumers that way And though we’ve kind of been silent, we’re Switzerland, if you will, on smoking and combustibles, but we keep getting caught up in all of this And again, whatever you think about saying that adults shouldn’t have the right to purchase products, it just makes no sense for the vapor products to get in, and we are gonna start issuing calls to action giving specific guidance, but this is a tough one This is a really tough one They wanna pass the entire legislation whole cloth They’re not gonna wanna carve out vapor products and we’re just gonna have to really push and at least have a conversation about it 0:28:33 BE: Right, thank you for that, Julie Now we’re gonna move on but we are gonna have more Q&A session at the end here that’ll be open to everybody and all panelists, so if you still have questions for Julie, please don’t hesitate to submit them We’ll get to some more after Scott Ballin’s section So our next presenter today is a Public Health Consultant with over 40 years of experience in the field, Scott Ballin Scott, thank you for joining us today and thank you for waiting patiently 0:28:58 Scott Ballin: No problem [chuckle] 0:29:00 BE: Excellent Well, we’ll just jump right into it Scott, I’m sure most viewers are familiar with your work but for anyone that’s not, can you give us a little brief rundown on your background? 0:29:09 SB: Well, I’ve been involved in the tobacco and nicotine environment for 40 years I came up through the ranks of the American Heart Association I served as their Vice President and Legislative Counsel in Washington for many years I wrote the petitions to the FDA to regulate tobacco products, helped put together those famous hearings with the CEOs standing up there with their hands raised swearing that nicotine was not addictive Worked on a lot of legislation over the years Tried to get the current Tobacco Control Act modified to make it more palatable and acceptable to promoting harm reduction, but the behind-the-scenes powers they brokered a deal that sort of set this thing in stone, particularly section 911 And people have to understand that this legislation was really a draconian measure to punish the

industry, most of the industry 0:30:04 SB: Now Philip Morris came along and got a few of its deals thrown in there for itself by agreeing to accept FDA but the statute and I’ve said this many times was pretty much outdated the day that President Obama signed it into law And now we’re having to cope with that So I’ve been involved in this stuff for 40 years and especially on the FDA regulatory side of things I’m still involved I did work for not only the Heart Association but also the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, the Lung Association, and others And now, I’ve been trying to focus on getting people to talk to each other because an experience that I had when I was with the Heart Association with University of Virginia brought the growers and health organizations together really allowed for some significant changes and understanding that allowed the growers to accept FDA no matter 0:31:04 SB: No, in some bad form obviously, but the public health community realized that putting the growers out of business wasn’t gonna resolve the public health problem Industry would just import more cheaper cigarettes from overseas, so we established a relationship, we walked the halls of Congress together, I took growers in to see public health legislators and they took me in to see a lot of their tobacco-sale legislators, and that process was incredibly effective But in trying to push that idea forward seems to have gotten sidetracked in the early part of this century, in the 21st century People were talking about it, and then the public health people went back to their silos and started doing the same old things they’ve always done in fighting the tobacco wars rather than looking for solutions for public health 0:31:56 BE: Great Thank you for that, Scott Now, you were recently featured in Vapor Voice Magazine And in that article, you were quoted as saying, “Many of the public health friends and colleagues from the American Cancer Society, Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, and American Heart Associations are unwilling to engage in a dialogue and they’re stuck in a ’90s type mentality.” Can you expand on that a little bit? 0:32:18 SB: Yeah, this is what I was sort of referring to before It was very interesting that in the late 1990s all of those organizations, except maybe the Lung Association, was willing to talk to tobacco growers The growers were considered part of the appendage of a big tobacco industry They were always used to come to Washington to do the lobbying And what happened was, is that, we in public health as I said began to realize that maybe we should have some discussions with them? And actually those were incredibly productive Now, what has happened today is that I think all of those organizations that you just mentioned have returned to their silos They’re looking at things as though these were the 1990s that we’re fighting big tobacco It’s in another form Now, it’s big vapor or little vapor It doesn’t make any difference 0:33:08 SB: They’re all trying to target our kids and addict our kids and causing more problems and/or just as much problem as tobacco did in the ’90s as well And this has been very troubling to me because when I talk to a lot of people who I’ve known all these years, some of them realized there’s something going on out there There is a change happening But they just don’t know how to get a handle on it to get the organizations to be more open to having some discussions about what the next step should be Julie alluded to this This all came out of nowhere in many respects This is all so new FDA is new The vaping industry is new The products are new and it’s gonna continue to rapidly change over the next several years And quite frankly, sticking one’s head in the ground and ignoring the opportunities for making changes that will support public health I think is actually in some ways irresponsible 0:34:13 BE: Now, Scott, what if anything do you believe that as vaping consumers we could do to help get the old guard from the public health community to join the fight to keep vapor products available? 0:34:24 SB: Well, following up on what I jut said, I think that what has got to happen is And it will eventually happen quite frankly Some of the people I’ve been talking to in the more traditional mainstream NGOs privately tell me, they know change is happening, they do like the concept of e-cigarettes but There’s a big BUT, they need to be regulated too They’re not sure what is really going to happen They don’t have control over certain things and many of these organizations learn some very difficult lessons trying to or being asked to accept the tobacco industry’s assurances

that when we fought the low-tar, low-nicotine wars, the industry was gonna do the right thing 0:35:09 SB: So you’ve got a lot of hold over on that but you got a lot of other people beginning to think about the future Now, I’ve said this many, many times that one of the things that change the whole environment was getting FDA And yes, there are a lot of challenges that I think the vaping industry and others are gonna have with FDA It’s got a bureaucracy and it’s supposed to be science-based but I will say that they’re trying to look at the future as well And Mitch Zeller, who I’ve known for many, many years, when he came out with a statement, he was so consistent with what some of us were saying five, six years ago That we need a more rational nicotine policy and one that is based on the continuum of risk That is a very, very important statement Now, trying to accomplish that goal after 40 years of entrenchment of thinking the same way is very difficult 0:36:02 SB: And having to deal with new industries and new science is not easy Consumers, and Julie mentioned this as well, have got to be involved in this process They really have never been And finally, we’re beginning to see that There’s a huge dynamic out there, and I think the old guard are beginning to see that something has to be done We have to look at how this can be changed, and how public health can actually be advanced But again, their concern is, is this real? Or are we just gonna go down the same path we did with big tobacco, the targeting of kids, the use of flavors? All the things that Julie mentioned just keep coming back and back and over and over again Those things have to be put to rest And there are ways to do that, but it’s gonna take a lot of work on a lot of people, including people in the public health community 0:36:57 BE: Great And Scott, just to step back a little bit, was there any particular study or piece of science that convinced you to fight for vapor products? 0:37:05 SB: No, actually It was just sort of a progressive thing As the information came out, and people started talking about it, and new manufacturers appeared in the marketplace, and new products appeared in the marketplace, and the dynamics of it and the fact that this was something that was feasible, I’ve always been someone who has supported the concept of harm reduction So this fit obviously, fit right in there I had learned a long time ago through my discussions with the tobacco growers and others that it’s not the tobacco that kills, it’s what you do with it And so, we should be looking more at the science or what science needs to be done And quite frankly, when you look at the smokeless end of things in the snus discussions, that suffered from the same thing in many respects, that the vaping industry is going through Even today, there are people in the public health community who say that snus is just as harmful as a cigarette And we, most of the people in the public health community, scientific community, disagreed with that notion years ago I mean, that was in 2001 and 2002 where they recognized that there was a continuum of risk, and these are some of the top scientists during those tobacco war days who recognize this 0:38:30 SB: Now, why can’t we start applying a common sense rationale to looking at the vaping products that are out there and begin to evaluate them in a systematic way that’s gonna benefit public health, benefit the consumer, and move us into a whole new era of rational regulation? So there was no real one study It’s evolving and it’s gonna continue to evolve 0:38:57 BE: Thank you for that, Scott Sorry for the dead air there What lessons did you learn from your fights with the tobacco industry in the ’90s that you apply to the e-cigarette advocacy today? 0:39:08 SB: Well, there are a couple things One is that when manufacturing any product that has the potential to cause harm, there needs to be comprehensive regulation in place And I know a lot of people don’t wanna see regulation, but I think the more responsible people in the vaping industry do They understand that there has to be some regulation We do it with everything else in society, the foods we ingest, the dietary supplements, even cosmetics, drugs, devices, all kinds of things And so, we’ve got to start thinking about that So I think anybody who is in the business of manufacturing a harmful product has to accept that Obviously, the big tobacco companies did not They fought us tooth and nail, and we stayed in a war with them There was no opportunity for finding any path forward

It made things more difficult, and they’re still difficult today And that said, the second thing I would say is that you’ve gotta watch very carefully from a public health side, any industry, very carefully Companies and manufacturers have to demonstrate a commitment to consumer protection 0:40:20 SB: They just can’t say, “Well, we’re trying to give consumers products.” The products that are out there that consumers are going to be using need to be tested, they need to be evaluated, and consumers need to know that what they’re getting is what they’re being told And that is something again that big tobacco never did They pulled the wool over our eyes with low tar, low nicotine They got people even more addicted, they smoked more, they inhaled more deeply It didn’t reduce the disease and death that was expected because they were taking toxins out And so for a lot of people in public health, the lessons learned from those days are the ones they’re trying to apply today But I think we’re in a very different environment, we’re dealing with a very different set of people, who have very different objectives, and we’re gonna have to try to get our public health friends to start accepting that But those are the lessons that we learned Good lessons, but not fully applicable to today’s environment 0:41:19 BE: Great And that’s [overlapping conversation] 0:41:20 SB: Another thing I’ll say to the vaping industry, don’t cut corners, whatever you do Make sure that you’re transparent, you’re open That’s the other thing that has to happen And if you do have bad apples amongst yourselves, get rid of them, because they will give you all a bad name and that’s exactly what public health is looking for, someone to give you a bad name 0:41:42 BE: [chuckle] Yes, absolutely And the main point to take away there, too, is regulation doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the E-Cig industry It’s just making sure that we get the regulations correct, and have enough time for these public comments Now, speaking of regulations, Scott, what do you think should be applied, in regards to regulation, to the E-Cig industry? 0:42:00 SB: Well, as I said before, there’s some common sense that needs to be applied It’s like any other product we have in society Consumers have a right to know about the product, what’s in it There need to be product standards set up so we have some assurances that if a product is being manufactured, it will be and will continue to be what it says it is And if there’s a problem with it, it should be taken off the market We need to make sure there is marketing restrictions aimed at children that doesn’t prevent or shouldn’t prevent the marketing of these products in a responsible way If that marketing does not mislead consumers or the general public, the flavoring issues and other things, there needs to be some sort of sorting out of what that means And again, so much of this stuff is public relations rhetoric Flavors to me can be sorted out FDA does it in the food area with grass, generally recognize the safe flavorings You can monitor products And that’s another important regulatory component 0:43:04 SB: It’s going to require collaboration between the regulator, the industry, consumers, public health to see what people are actually doing using the product And that’s gonna be evaluated over time Instead what we have is a bunch of rhetoric, daily rhetoric that is trying to shape public opinion, and we see that it’s actually working, unfortunately But I think we need to go back and sit down and map out what the essential elements of regulations should be The things that I just mentioned And start working on those things in a very collaborative way, involving the regulators And even policy makers, they need to be educated about what should be done We need to put some real focus on what regulations should be, and how they can be effective, and how they can be flexible enough to meet the requirements of what consumers and the public wants or deserves 0:44:05 BE: Absolutely Now Scott, why do you think so many people in public health still oppose e-cigarettes being on the market? 0:44:16 SB: I think, as I said before, the problem is, most of us, including my self, we grew up in an environment where the industry controlled everything When I came, started working on this stuff 40 years ago, most of the people on this line won’t know the name Mike Pertschuk He was at one time the Chairman of the Federal Trade Commission, worked on Capitol Hill When I started pushing the concept of having FDA regulate tobacco, he told me I was on a fool’s errand And that’s in David Kessler’s book And I just kept pushing it because I believe that this was something that had to be done And the reason all of this was so important is because we were taking on an industry that had more money than God

We were taking on an industry that controlled Congress, the regulatory agencies They were able to use organizations like the grower organizations, advertising associations, et cetera They were basically dominating the entire environment And I think, again, the lessons that were learned and the sort of knee-jerk reaction that we see from many in public health is, “We don’t wanna go down that road We’ve done these things before We’re gonna do ’em again And we’re gonna prevent any of this happening again.” 0:45:40 SB: And so it’s easy to take the tools that have been used all these years and now to try to apply them to the e-cigarette industry I think many of you have heard the comments from Matt Myers and others who said they don’t want much change Just what they wanna do is to continue doing what they’ve been doing, just put more money into it And I think that is the wrong thing to be doing I think they need to do that as a backup thing But I also think that what has to happen is they need to recognize we are now in a regulated environment Whether they like it or not or the vaping industry likes it or not is not the issue We are in a regulated environment under which public health can be given due diligence, and we can actually begin to find some solutions to some of these things So they’re gonna still oppose e-cigarettes, an easy thing to do But I will also tell you that I think there’s some changes going on There’s some new views from some people who believe that this is something that we really have to talk about in a more serious fashion and not just play the public relations game 0:46:50 BE: Great Well Scott, we have time for one more question and then we’re gonna move to some questions from the viewers here Now recently, you’ve been speaking with the University of Virginia, can you give us a little bit of detail about the discussions you’ve been having with them? 0:47:02 SB: Well, it really goes back to the 1990s when the University of Virginia threw a grant from Robert Wood Johnson brought the tobacco growers and the public health community together to sit down in a safe haven environment to see if there was any common ground As I said, the growers were used by the tobacco industry repeatedly to oppose any of our efforts When we actually got involved and sat down and got in a room with them, it was fascinating to watch what happened And how we got to understand each other, differing views We didn’t agree on everything but they understood why, for the first time, we supported FDA I have to also throw in at that time the tobacco companies were spending millions of dollars to promote a campaign in the tobacco states of “Keep FDA off the farm!” Pouring millions of dollars into that effort 0:48:02 SB: And so the growers were being told what to do But when we sat down, we told them we weren’t trying to put them out of business We were trying to actually help find a solution forward and it changed the whole dynamics And as I said, we went to Capitol Hill together We advocated for their buyout They advocated for FDA and a changed dynamics Now fast forward to the last five years, there have been a series of new dialogues, they’re called the Morven Dialogues, ’cause that’s where the retreat center was, just outside Charlottesville There have been five of those and they’ve all been focused on tobacco and nicotine harm reduction We’ve kept those meetings relatively small They started out with 20 people, and then they’ve gone up to 40 There’ve been about 100 people who have been through the Morven process People come as individuals, take off their hats, check their egos at the door, and we begin to have some very carefully controlled, moderated, facilitated discussions about issues pertaining to tobacco harm reduction 0:49:10 SB: That has incredibly been very productive There’s never been a vicious fight in any of those meetings, believe it or not, and we’ve been able to develop a set of principles that I think apply across the board to everything that’s being discussed in the vaping area and can be applied to it I hope people will take a look at those core principles and sign onto them We are now talking about how to take this to a much larger level so that we can actually begin some dialogues that’ll help shape policy and also hope get rid of some of the distrust that exists between the various stakeholders 0:49:51 BE: Great, thank you, Scott We have some questions coming in from the viewers, so we’re gonna run through those real quick and these are gonna be questions for Scott and for Julie, and then probably a couple questions that if you both wanna answer, you’re more than welcome to

The first one we have here is for Scott and it asks, “What do you think about the American Lung Association saying that Leonardo DiCaprio vaping at the SAG awards was harmful to those around him because of the carcinogenic properties of secondhand vapor?” 0:50:19 SB: Well, I have a problem with that obviously because the Lung Association I must say, I’ve known them for many, many years and they had been my colleagues and I respect a lot of what they do, but of all the organizations, they have been the most outspoken, quite frankly, on the whole vaping industry And they’re the ones that quite frankly should be more concerned about the positive aspects of it looking at the science in a little bit more depth because of the lung disease associations So I’m not surprised about that That’s the position that they’ve taken They were one of the few national groups that did not engage with the tobacco growers when all the others, Heart Association, Cancer Society, and even the campaign did to try to resolve some issues They continued to take the more standard high road that anything that you smoke or suck on or creates a vapor anything else is harmful So I’m not surprised by that 0:51:20 BE: Great Thank you for that, Scott The next question here is directed for Julie They’d love to hear your thoughts on Florida HB 1143 that would make it illegal to carry or possess nicotine dispensing devices 0:51:34 JW: Yes We’re familiar with it We actually issued a call to action on it It is I use this word all the time it seems like when I’m talking about legislation, but it’s ridiculous We’re hoping that it’s not going to progress Florida Smoke Free Association has been really active and we think that maybe it might be stopped in its tracks right now, but of course nothing is for sure and the language can always be tacked on with another bill But of course, it’s ridiculous What are they gonna do? Purse check the whole thing And the other problem with it again, it equates e-cigarette use with smoking They’re not the same And they also don’t have carve-outs So we saw no carve-out for vape shops So we could wind up in a situation like what they have in New Jersey where you’re not allowed to allow customers to sample products before they buy them So yeah, we don’t like it [chuckle] 0:52:42 BE: Well, thank you for that, Julie This next question is open to either of the panelists How would you suggest a state level advocacy start a dialogue with the public health researchers such as the American Lung Association or the American Heart Association? 0:53:00 JW: I’m gonna let Scott take that one first That’s more his area 0:53:03 SB: Again, that’s a tough nut to crack, but I’m a big believer that it doesn’t hurt for someone to pick up the phone and call somebody and say, “I wanna talk to you.” No one has to give anything away and quite often that is what has happened with the dialogues through Morven There’s been so many independent relationships that develop And I would suggest that there probably are some people within those states who do want to get more information, who do wanna see what’s possible to do, and who do wanna learn and be educated But this is a two-way street as well So I think it needs to start slowly It’s gotta start with people who have the best of intentions to try to figure out how to move some of this stuff forward And if it grows beyond that, I think that’s a fabulous thing I will say that part of my concern is that if those things do not happen, this just becomes more adversarial and polarizing and we get nothing Nothing happens except for a war 0:54:09 SB: And as I may have said earlier, I think that the vaping community is at a stage here where they can actually help change the dynamics of the discussion But it’s gonna take some work and not just fighting legislation, but also trying to build some relationships with people even if you know you’re going into a meeting or having a discussion with somebody that’s gonna be very difficult from the start There are a few people out there who I know in different states who might be willing to do that I will say that some of the researchers are becoming more and more open to talking with people, e-cigarette companies, finding out what’s going on in their research facilities That’s the other thing I think that’s gonna be very, very helpful down the road That the science aspect of this is gonna help change the dynamics of the discussion

And I hope that researchers will invite vaping companies to their facilities, to show them around, talk to them, because I will tell you I guess I get very I’m appalled by the fact that how little my colleagues in the public health community know at the national state and local levels about what this industry is 0:55:23 SB: And when I talk to people about product standards, the need for them, they look at me like I just got off a spaceship from Mars They have no clue or no concept about what is being suggested to make this a win-win situation So it’s gonna require some hard work and maybe there are a few people out there in the research community and in public health where some discussions can take place There’s a meeting on tobacco and nicotine taking place in Chicago in March and that may be a place for making some contacts and engaging in some dialogue between research and vaping manufacturers So I think that it can be done at the local level, national level, but it’s gonna require some leaderships, some people willing to stand up and be counted even if some of their colleagues may try to ridicule them 0:56:18 BE: Great Thank you for that, Scott Now the next question is an open question for the panelists again With all the hysteria about batteries exploding and catching fire which also happens with computers and cellphones, it seems that regulation is imminent What do you see in regards to hardware regulation for E-Cigs in the future? 0:56:36 JW: I think we’re at a federal level We’re still a pretty far away from that FDA doesn’t even have jurisdiction over e-cigarettes yet And the battery regulations, that’s a tough one And, yeah, it’s one thing if you’re talking about a cigalike that’s an integrated closed system, where they use a very specific battery so it’s a little bit different when you’re talking about the open systems where you have a variety of different batteries All of which you can get at a lot of different places It’s not like you can only buy it with your device So I think we’re still a ways away from it 0:57:18 BE: Great Thank you for that, Julie Now, we’re getting short on time here so we only have time for a couple more questions, but this is another open question for the panelists In the next three years, where do you guys foresee the E-Cig industry? 0:57:30 JW: I’ll let Scott go first 0:57:33 SB: Regulated [laughter] 0:57:36 SB: Smaller, more focused And when I say smaller, that does not mean that production levels will drop I think there will be some settling down I think Julie alluded to this earlier Regulations often bring people exiting the marketplace and that’s probably going to happen But I think that if things are done properly and public health is willing to listen, the researchers who I’ve mentioned or suggested are beginning to listen and want to have more engagement and discussions, I think we’ll see something very, very different out there And I think we will see greater pressure on getting rid of the combustible cigarette that is causing all the harm I think we’re gonna see even more innovation and new products into the marketplace, not just on e-vaping but other types of products that may be something more along snooze lines but is more consumable and acceptable I think that if things happen and the stars line up, then we’re gonna see a completely new environment of tobacco and nicotine and alternative products, very, very different than the one we see today 0:58:50 JW: If I could add something Am I Am I live? 0:58:55 BE: Yes, you are 0:58:56 JW: Sorry I agree to a certain extent, but I’m a little bit concerned that we’re still talking about I don’t think we’re gonna see that much innovation Frankly, moving forward if we’re under this kind of regulatory scheme because the effect of this is to basically freeze technology It’s just almost prohibitively expensive to get a new product marketed under this system So I’m very concerned about that And I’d also like to make it clear that as a consumer organization, we believe that there is a reasonable level of federal regulation and oversight that would be genuinely beneficial not just for industry but also for consumers But I wanna be very clear, this isn’t it This is not it This is pretty devastating and the devastation comes in just strictly from the Deeming Just the mere fact of exerting jurisdiction over e-cigarettes in this fashion, they will be destroying the diverse marketplace 0:59:57 BE: Great, thank you 0:59:57 SB: Let me just add to that because I agree with that And I’ve been one of the few people who have said for five years at least “We gotta change

the statute.” Congress needs to do some serious oversight hearings Maybe when the Deeming stuff comes out, it’s gonna cause a lot more confusion and they need to restructure the statute in a way that e-cigarettes and this industry is recognized as a different category It may stay under the center for I’ve suggested a center for tobacco and nicotine and alternative products so that we can regulate them across the spectrum, but recognizing that they’re very different And I hope, and having done this for 40 years, I hope that we can put some pressure on Congress after we get past these elections later this year to do something to restructure and put in place a more rational system and process that’s gonna benefit public health and benefit the consumer and all those who are trying to do the right thing 1:00:57 BE: Thank you for that, Scott Well, unfortunately, we’re out of time for today I wanted to thank both Julie and Scott for taking the time out of their day to join us, and I also wanted to thank all the viewers for participating And if you submitted a question and we didn’t get time to get to your question, keep an eye out on your email, ’cause we will be sending out answers to the questions via email within the next few days So make sure you’re staying connected with CASAA to hear about all the ways that you can participate in e-cigarette advocacy And until next time, thank you all