Jon Meacham and Doris Kearns Goodwin at The Richmond Forum

>> THE WORLD IS NEITHER FLAT NOR BINARY, NOR FINITE. BLACK AND WHITE LIE SEPARATED BY COUNTLESS SHADES OF GRAY. FROM OUR UNIQUE POINTS OF VIEW, WE BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD BY ADDING THE VIEWS OF OTHERS. THEIR KNOWLEDGE. THEIR EXPERIENCE. THEIR IDEAS. THEIR STORIES AND ART. THEIR FAILURES AND TRIUMPHS. TONIGHT, THE WE EXPAND OUR WORLD VIEW BY ADDING DEPTH TO OUR UNDERSTANDING. DIMENSION TO SOMEONE KNOWN ONLY FROM AFAR. PERSPECTIVE TO OUR PAST. AND A FEW PLACES WE’VE NEVER BEEN. TOGETHER, WE SET OUT TO CHANGE THE WORLD. SIMPLY BY CHANGING THE WAY WE LOOK AT THE WORLD. WELCOME TO RICHMOND FORUM. TONIGHT, ON THE FIRST FULL DAY OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION, WE SEEK PERSPECTIVE BY TAKING A LONG VIEW OF AMERICA’S FIRST-TERM PRESIDENTS WITH ACCLAIMED HISTORIANS AND OUR MODERATOR, STEVE INSKI. WELCOME. >> IT IS WONDERFUL TO BE WITH YOU TONIGHT BECAUSE YESTERDAY, I WAS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AND COVERED THE INAUGURATION. AND HAD A SEAT OVERLOOKING THE PLATFORM, SO I GOT TO SEE THE FORMER PRESIDENTS, THE CURRENT PRESIDENT ABOUT TO BE THE EX-PRESIDENT, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT ABOUT TO BE THE PRESIDENT, ALL OF THEM SHAKING HANDS, TOUCH ELBOWS AND WORK THE ROOM A LITTLE BIT. I’M TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED AS I THINK MANY OF THE REST OF US ARE. THIS HAS BEEN AN ASTONISHING ELECTION. I’D LIKE TO BEGIN ABOUT WHAT IT’S BEEN LIKE TO WATCH THIS LAST YEAR AND A HALF. THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT FELT DISLOCATED AS IF SOMETHING IS HAPPENING THAT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. WHAT’S HAPPENING TO US? >> PEOPLE WILL ASK YOU, HOW DID WE GET TRUMP? AS IF I’M GOING TO KNOW BUT I THINK THERE IS — YOU KNOW, RIGHT? JUST SAY WELL — >> WELL. THAT LOOKING BACK TO THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, YOU CAN SEE WHY THE ANXIETY AND ANGER AND FEAR ALLOWED A POPULIST MESSAGE, I THINK, TO GET THROUGH. YOU HAD THE ECONOMY UP ENDED AND ALL SORTS OF INVENTIONS SPEEDING UP LIVE. PEOPLE FELT LIKE THE CITIES WERE TAKING THEM OVER. THERE WAS LOTS OF IMMIGRATION FROM ABROAD AND YOU HAD POPULISM. IT’S IN A PROTEST MOVEMENT AND DIDN’T MAKE ITS WAY AS THIS ONE DID INTO A MAJOR PARTY. WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS A TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION. IMMIGRATION. PEOPLE IN THE RURAL AREAS SEPARATED OFF FROM THE CITY. SO THAT SAME MIX, I THINK ALLOWED TRUMP TO BECOME THE NOMINEE. THE SAME SHIFT WON’T HAVE WORKED BECAUSE IN THE OLD DAYS THE POLITICIANS USED TO CHOOSE WHO WAS AT THE CONVENTIONS AND THEY CHOSE THEMSELVES. GOVERNORS, SENATORS AND MAYORS. >> THERE WEREN’T VM — VERY MANY DELEGATES. >> UNLESS THERE WAS A MILITARY CHARACTER AROUND, THEY’D CHOOSE A FELLOW POLITICIAN. IF THAT WERE TRUE NOW THERE IS NO WAY DONALD TRUMP WOULD HAVE BEEN CHOSEN BY THE POLITICIANS. THE PRIMARIES WERE STARTED BY MY GUY, TEDDY ROOSEVELT. IT WAS HIS FAULT. THE GUY I LIVED WITH EIGHT

YEARS. >> IT’S YOUR FAULT. >> IT’S MY FAULT. >> IN 1912 HE WANTS TO RUN AGAINST TAFT. BUT TAFT IS THE PRESIDENT SITTING THERE. REALLY SITTING THERE. AND HE HAS, HE HAS CONTROL OF THE PARTY MACHINERY. SO TEDDY IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN GET THE NOMINATION IS TO HAVE A PRIMARY SYSTEM. SO HE STARTS A CRUSADE. LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE. 13 PRIMARIES ARE CREATED. TAFT STILL HAS PARTY MACHINERY. TAFT WINS THE ELECTION AND SOME REPUBLICAN SENATOR SAID NOW THE ONLY QUESTION IF RUNNING AGAINST EACH OTHER IS WHICH PORT IS GOING TO GET THE MOST FLOWERS AND WOOD ROW WILSON WINS. THEY COME BACK IN, AND IN THE 50s, 60s, AND 70s AND TODAY. AND SO THE PEOPLE SPOKE AND RESPONDED TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. THE MESSAGE OF ANTI-IMMIGRATION AND FREE TRADE, ETC. >> SO YOU HEAR RESONANCES OF THE PAST AS DIFFERENT AS IT MAY SEEM TO SOME OF US NOW. >> WHEN DORIS AND I TRIED TO ASK QUESTIONS TO OUR DEAD SUBJECTS PEOPLE GET WORRIED. >> I REMEMBER TALKING. ELEANOR, JUST FORGET HE HAD AN AFFAIR AND JUST BE NICER TO HER. >> MORE GOSSIP ABOUT DEAD PEOPLE. >> DORIS’S LIFE IS THE SHINING MEETS C-SPAN. >> IT’S IMPOSSIBLE. >> WE DO INTERVENTIONS. I DO. I WAS WRONG ABOUT TRUMP. I THOUGHT WE’RE ENTERING A MOMENT LIKE THE FAMOUS ESSAY PUBLISHED AT THE COVER STORY IN HARPER’S MAGAZINE IN OCTOBER, 1964. IN WHICH HOFFSTED AND CONSPIRACY THEORYS AS JEFFERSON THOUGHT HAMILTON WAS TRYING TO SELL US OUT TO THE BRITISH. AND THE MESSAGE TO JEFFERSON, MEET ME OUT BACK. JUST MY LUCK, IT’S THE OTHER GUY. >> GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE OF NNL ENGINEER CALLED AND ASKED ME SWEETLY TO COME TO LUNCH IN TRENTON TO TALK ABOUT JEFFERSON. HAPPY TO DO IT HE SAID I’M MORE OF A HAMILTONIN. I SAID THAT IS GREAT, BUT MY GUY DIDN’T GET SHOT IN JERSEY. THE DAMNEDEST THING HAPPENED. I COULDN’T GET BACK INTO THE CITY. SO ANYWAY. >> SEE HOW LEARNED THIS AUDIENCE IS? ALL OF THESE STORIES, YOU GET THEM. >> THAT WAS BEFORE GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE BECAME PATTY HEARST. SO. BACK TO RICHARD HOFFSTEDER. >> 1964, OCTOBER. PARANOID STYLE. >> YOU HAVE THESE MOMENTS WHERE THERE IS A SENSE FROM A DISPOSSESSED PART OF THE PUBLIC THAT BELIEVES THAT THIS IS TO USE A CURRENT PHRASE, RIGGED AGAINST THEM. BAVARIAN ILLUMINATI OF THE EARLY REPUBLIC TO THE JOHN HEARST SOCIETY IN 1964 WHICH IS WHAT THE OCCASION WAS. AND WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IS THAT THIS PARANOID ENERGY, THIS POPULIST ENERGY GETS ABSORBED BY THE MAJOR PARTY USUALLY BEFORE IT CAN GET TOO FAR OUT OF CONTROL. SO GEORGE WALLACE, THE REPUBLICANS TOOK THAT ENERGY AWAY FROM HIM. THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, FRANKLY, WHEN IT WAS A PARTY OF SEGREGATIONISTS TOOK THIS ENERGY AWAY FROM STROM THURMOND WHO RAN

IN 1948. ROSS PERO, YOU KNOW THERE IS A LITTLE MORE POPULISM. THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN THIS TIME. TO SOME EXTENT, TRUMP’S TRIUMPH WAS THE FIRST REPORTED CASE OF A HIJACKER BOARDING A PLANE, HAVING PASSENGER SIDE WITHIN. >> DO YOU MAKE THESE THINGS UP? >> IT REALLY IS. TO ME, IT’S LESS BROADLY HISTORICAL. TWO NUMBERS EXPLAIN WHY DONALD TRUMP BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES YESTERDAY. ONE IS 17. WHEN DORIS’S FRIEND LYNDON JOHNSON WAS PRESIDENT IN 1965, 77% OF AMERICAN PEOPLE TRUSTED THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT. 77. TODAY, THAT NUMBER IS 17%. SECOND NUMBER IS 130,000. $130,000 IS WHAT JOE BIDEN’S MIDDLE CLASS TASK FORCE SAID WAS THE HOUSEHOLD INCOME NEEDED TO LIVE A CLASSIC POST WORLD WAR II MIDDLE CLASS LIFE. IN THIS COUNTRY, HOUSEHOLD INCOME IS $55,700. IN THAT MISSING GAP, OF BOTH TRUST AND INCOME, YOU HAD GASOLINE ON THE FLOOR AND IN THIS REMARKABLE CULTURAL FIGURE, REMEMBER, TRUMP IS A CULTURAL FIGURE. NOT A POLITICAL ONE, FIRST. HE IS THE MATCH THAT WENT ON THE FLOOR. AND THAT IS WHAT WE’RE LIVING WITH. >> WE’VE RESOLVED THE WHOLE PROBLEM. WE’RE GOING TO GO NOW. >> THANK YOU, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT. I APPRECIATE THOSE INSIGHTS. WE’RE SITTING HERE TRYING TO PUT PRESIDENT TRUMP INTO HISTORICAL CONTEXT. DO YOU THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS A DEEP APPRECIATION OF HISTORY? >> WELL — >> THANK YOU FOR COMING. >> THERE HAVE BEEN RECENT ARTICLES SAYING THAT HE DOESN’T REALLY READ HISTORY AND DOESN’T READ A LOT. TEDDY ROOSEVELT SAID BOOKS ARE THE GREATEST COMPANIONS. YOU UNDERSTAND HUMAN NATURE IN PART HAIRY TRUMAN NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE BUT HE READ HISTORY. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE BY READING ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT WENT BEFORE AND THEIR STRUGGLE THAT’S YOU’RE GOING TO LEARN SOMETHING. YOU’RE GOING TO GROW FROM THAT JUST AS WE GROW FROM OUR PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS, YOU HOPEFULLY GROW FROM IT AND DON’T HAVE TO START OVER AGAIN. THE OTHER DAY THERE WAS A PICTURE OF TRUMP’S DESK. THIS SURPRISED MY, UNTIL, I’LL TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED. THERE WAS MAGAZINES ON THERE AND TWO COPIES OF THE NEW BOOK “UNPREDICTABLE” AND UNDERNEATH, TEAM OF RIVALS. A REPORTER SAYS THIS IS EXCITING. HE SAID SOMEONE GAVE IT TO HIM AS A GIFT BUT HE’S NOT ACTIVELY READING IT. JUST TO BE FAIR TO HIM. >> HE DOES READ HISTORY. THERE ARE 30 YEARS OF MAGAZINE COVERS. >> ON THE DESK. >> WITH HIS FACE. 30 YEARS. THAT IS A LOT OF HISTORY. >> I WAS GOING TO SAY TO BE FAIR TO HIM, HE SAYS HE LEARNS RATHER THROUGH CONVERSATION. IN THE PRESIDENCY HE RAN MOSTLY MYSTERIES AT NIGHT. HE DIDN’T READ A LOT OF BOOKS DURING HIS TIME BUT HE WAS ABLE TO ABSORB CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE. THAT IS HOW HE LEARNED. HE WAS A GREAT QUESTIONER. PEOPLE ARE TALKING TO HIM AND GIVING HIM INFORMATION AND HAVE EXPERTS IN THE FIELD THAT HE CAN LEARN FROM THEM. >> I WENT TO SEE MR. TRUMP. LAST MAY TO TALK ABOUT JUST THIS. AND WENT TO TRUMP TOWER. HE WAS VERY GRACIOUS. IT WAS LIKE AN ADMIRAL MARY POPPINS. HE HAD A HAT AND FIRING OFF CANNONS. SITTING BEHIND THE DESK AND THERE ARE GOLF TROPHIES EVERYWHERE. I RECOGNIZE THOSE BECAUSE I HAVE NONE. AND THERE ARE THE OLD MAGAZINE COVERED, FRAMED AND COVERS OF HIS THAT ARE ALL OVER. THIS IS A — REALLY — HE

DOESN’T READ HISTORY. BUT HIS BASIC VIEW IS, AND HE SAID IT THIS AFTERNOON VISITING GEORGE HW BUSH CENTER OF INTELLIGENCE AT LANGLY WHEN HE WENT TO SEE THE CIA TODAY HE’S A SMART PERSON. HE BELIEVES HE IS INTELLECTUALLY EQUIPPED, LARGELY BY INSTINCT, TO DO THIS JOB. AND IF YOU DO WHAT WE DO FOR A LIVING, THAT SEEMS UNLIKELY. HIS POINT, WHICH IS A PURE POPULIST VIEW IS IF THE EXPERTS WERE SO SMART, WHY WON’T THE WORLD BE IN BETTER SHAPE? IF THE PEOPLE WHO READ HISTORY WERE SO WELL INFORMED WHY DO WE HAVE THAT INCOME GAP? WHY DO WE HAVE A SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT WE HAVE? SO WHY DON’T YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES, JUST TOTALLY LIVES IN THE MOMENT. I NEVER MET A PERSON THAT LIVES IN THE MOMENT LIKE THIS. IT’S CABLE NEWS, WHATEVER COMES ACROSS TWITTER. LIKE AN OPEN SYNAPSE. AND WE HAVE TO SOME EXTENT RESPECT THE FACT THE RIGHT NUMBER OF VOTERS MADE THIS DECISION. SO HE SAYS STONE WALL JACKSON HAD BEEN IN CHARGE INSTEAD OF GENERAL LEE. SORRY. YOU KNOW? WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT? WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF FOREST HAS BEEN UNLEASHED MORE. AND HE TOLD ME HE ONCE CANCELLED A GOLF MATCH BECAUSE THERE WAS A MARATHON ON OF KEN’S CIVIL WAR. AND IF YOU KNOW TRUMP IT’S PRETTY MUCH THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE. I CALLED HIM BACK TO SEE IF THERE IS ANYTHING. HAVE YOU READ DORIS AND READ DAVID McCULLAUH? HE TOLD ME HE READ BILL O’REILLY’S BOOKS. >> THAT IS THE ASSASSINATION BOOKS. >> YES. THE KILLING BOOKS. HE READ A BOOK ABOUT THE RISE OF ISIS AND ONE NEGATIVE PARTISAN BOOK ABOUT HITLER. THAT IS IT. HE BELIEVES HE’S A NATURAL. HE COMPARED HIMSELF TO LYDIA KO SAYING SHE WAS ONCE ASKED ON A GOLF CHANNEL INTERVIEW, WHAT YOUR SWING THOUGHTS? SHE SAID I DON’T KNOW, I JUST SWING. AND COMPARED TO BABE RUTH, HEY, BABE, HOW DO YOU HIT THE LONG BALL? HE REPLIED I DON’T KNOW, I JUST SWING AT IT. THAT IS ME. HE REPEATED THOSE POINTS IN INTERVIEWS. WE HAVE MOVED IN THE TYPICAL AMERICAN WAY OF MOVING FROM ONE GUARDRAIL TO ANOTHER AND HAVE MOSTED FROM THE MOST INTELLECTUAL PRESIDENT, CERTAINLY, I WOULD ARGUE, SINCE JEFFERSON SO VALIDLY THE LEAST INTELLECTUAL PRESIDENT YOU CAN IMAGINE. HE WOULD ACCEPT THAT AND SAY YES. >> THAT IS A GOOD THING. YES. >> ARE WE STILL WITHIN THE GUARDRAILS? >> WHAT WORRIES ME IS THAT IT WAS ONE THING DURING THE CAMPAIGN. HE’D GET ANGRY WITH SOMEBODY TO BE ABLE TO PUT OUT TWEETS THAT COARSENED DIALOGUE TERRIBLY. IF THAT CONTINUES YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO MANAGE AND STRESSFUL TIMES, YOUR NEGATIVE EMOTIONS. UNLESS HE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DO THAT IF HE TWEETS OUT ANGRY THINGS DIALOGUE OF THE COUNTRY COULD GET US OVER THOSE GUARDRAILS. I MEAN, I KEEP WISHING HE CAN HAVE A FAKE TWITTER ACCOUNT. WHENEVER FEELING GOOD, HE COULD BE THE REAL ONE AND HE’LL TALK TO HIS PEOPLE AND IT WILL BE GREAT. LINCOLN HAD THIS HOT LETTER THING HE WOULD DO. HE WOULD WRITE A LETTER AND PUT IT ASIDE AND NEVER SEND IT.

AND SO UPSET HE WROTE A LONG LETTER SAYING YOU DIDN’T DO WHAT WE ASKED YOU TO DO. THE WAR COULD HAVE BEEN OVER SOON. HE KNEW IT WOULD PARALYZE THE GENERAL IN THE FIELD. THEN, UNDERNEATH NOTATION, NEVER SENT, NEVER SIGNED AND LINCOLN DID THAT REGULARLY. WHEN ROOS FELT CAME IN, A YOUNG SPEECH WRITER CAME IN SAYING HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT SOME ISOLATIONIST SAYING IF YOU’RE GOING TO DO THAT, HE SAID DON’T WORRY. SECOND DRAFT IS THERE. HE GOT IT OUT OF HIS SYSTEM. I INTERVIEWED PRESIDENT OBAMA FOR AN EXIT INTERVIEW WITH “VANITY FAIR” I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT LINCOLN’S HOT LETTERS AND SAID DO YOU THINK OF DOING THAT? HE SAID I DO IT ALL THE TIME. I SAID I’M WRITING THINGS DOWN AND LETTERS TO THE PEOPLE AND I CRUMPEL THEM UP AND PUT THEM IN THE WASTE BASKET. THAT SHOWS SELF REFLECTION AND AWARENESS OF YOUR WEAKNESSES AND THAT YOU UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GOVERNOR ON YOUR SELF. CONQUERING YOURSELF IS PROBABLY THE MOST-IMPORTANT THING. UNLESS HE CAN, I WORRY ABOUT WHERE THESE GUARDRAILS MIGHT BE. >> ONE EXPLANATION FOR WATER GATE IS THAT NIXON SAID GO BOMB BROOKINGS OR KILL DEMOCRATS OR WHATEVER HE SAID AFTER A COUPLE SIPS OF SCOTCH, YOU’RE, HR’S JOB WAS JUST NOT TO DO ANYTHING. >> RIGHT. >> THERE IS A THEORY THAT JUST. >> THIS IS HENRY KISSIN GER’S FAMOUS LINE. AND YOU’RE REMINDING ME, I WISH I CAN REMEMBER WHICH COMEDIAN, BUT TRUMP WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT TWITTER THEN DISCOVER TWEETS WERE PUBLIC. I’D LIKE TO BRING ANOTHER PRESIDENT INTO THE PICTURE, YOU’RE A BIOGRAPHER OF ANDREW JACKSON. WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN PEOPLE BEGAN MAKING THE COMPARISON BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND ANDREW JACKSON? >> WELL, THERE IS THE HAIR. >> THE MOMENT IS JACKSONIN. JACKSON WAS THE FIRST AMERICAN PRESIDENT NOT A VIRGINIA PLANTER OR ADAMS FROM MASSACHUSETTS. HENRY CLAY COINED THE PHRASE “SELF MADE MAN” IN THE AGE OF JACKSON. HE WAS THAT. FROM THE LOWEST REACHES OF WHITE SOCIETY, HE WAS AN ORPHAN, HE LOST HIS MOTHER AND BROTHERS IN THE REVOLUTION. AND WHEN HE CAME TO WASHINGTON IN 1929, HOWEVER, HE CAME AS A FORMER SENATOR, JUDGE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE. SOMEONE, WHO, AS DORIS IS JUST SAYING UNDERSTOOD HIS OWN WEAKNESSES. HE UNDERSTAND HE HAD A TEMPER. HE HAD TWO BULLETS LONLED IN HIM WHEN HE TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE. ONE KEY THING ABOUT JACKSON IS TO REMEMBER IS IN THOSE DUELS HE FIRED THE SECOND SHOT. >> DID HE ASSUME THEY WON’T BE GOOD SHOTS? >> OR WILLING TO TAKE THE PAIN. >> HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE HE KILLED THE OTHER GUY. >> ONE MOMENT IS THIS BOOT FILLED WITH BLOOD AS HE KILLED A MAN, JOHN DICTINSON WHO ATTACKED HIS WIFE, RACHEL. THE ATTACK WAS TRUE. TO ME, GREAT STORY ABOUT JACKSON THAT SEPARATES IT FROM THE TRUMP, JACKSONIN COMPARISONS WHICH BY THE WAY ARE RECENT, IN THAT INTERVIEW, I DID WITH HIM, JACKSON NEVER CAME UP. IF MENTIONING HIM, HE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT I WAS TALKING ABOUT REGGIE. I DON’T THINK WE WOULD HAVE HAD A LOT OF — A LOT THERE. >> WHAT ARE THE PARALLELS BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND REGGIE JACKSON? >> SO I THINK THAT JACKSON IN WINTER 1832, 33 WE HAD A SHE DOWN WITH SOUTH CAROLINA.

AND I KNEW THAT. >> JACKSONIN. >> YOU KNOW, STEVE CALHOUN HAD BEEN HIS VICE PRESIDENT. JACKSON SAID HIS RECRUITS IS THAT HE HAD NOT HUNG HENRY CLAY AND SHOT JOHN C CALHOUN, NOBODY FELT THAT WAY ABOUT THE VICE PRESIDENT AGAIN UNTIL JOHN MCCAIN. SO THIS IS A FREE ONE. IT’S A FREE ONE. OKAY? THAT IS JUST A FREEBIE ON INAUGURATION WEEKEND. SOUTH CAROLINA WANTED THE RIGHT TO NULL YI FI FEDERAL LAW. JACKSON POUNDED THE DESK. THREATENED, I’LL HANG THE FIRST NULL FIEER. I’LL WALK INTO SOUTH CAROLINA WITH 10,000 MEN. YOUR GOVERNOR SIDED WITH JACKSON. SO, HE’S MAKING ALL OF THE RIGHT NOISES ABOUT WAR LIFE, FITTING, PLAYING THE TYPE. YOU KNOW, AMERICAN BONAPRTE. WHAT IS HE DOING ALL NIGHT? WRITING LETTERS TO HIS MAN ON THE GROUND SAYING WHATEVER YOU DO, DON’T MAKE THE FIRST MOVE. IF THERE IS TO BE CIVIL WAR, WE CAN NOT BE AGGRESSOR. HE WAS MANAGING AND MARSHALLING HIS TEMPER TO GET TO THE RIGHT PLACE AND WE GOT TO THE RIGHT PLACE. HE GAVE US 30 YEARS TO FORM WHAT IS CALLED MYSTIC BOARDS OF MEMORY. THE JACKSON I BELIEVE IN IS SOMEONE WHO HAD A TEMPER BUT DEVELOPED A TEMPERAMENT. >> TEMPERAMENT CAME UP IN THE ELECTION. PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THINGS WE’RE LOOKING AT IN THE VERY BEGINNING. WHAT KIND OF TEMPERAMENT A LEADER BRINGS TO ANY LEADERSHIP JOB MEANS THEIR BASIC DISPOSITION IN LIFE. ARE THEY ABLE TO MEET WITH PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES? TO CONTROL THEIR EMOTIONS? A LOT OF TIMES THAT COMES FROM HAVING BEEN THROUGH DIFFICULTIES THEMSELVES. WHEN ASKED HE SAID I HAVE THE BEST TEMPERAMENT OF ANYONE IN PRESIDENCY BECAUSE I ALWAYS WIN. THAT IS NOT TRUE. OF ALL OF THE LEADERS I HAVE STUDIED, THEY NOT ONLY LOST BUT SUFFERED AND FROM THAT SUFFERING ROOS FELT, FRANKLIN BECAME A MUCH-BETTER PRESIDENT AFTER GOING THROUGH POLIO. HE KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO HAVE FATE DEAL YOU AN UNKIND HAND. SO HE CAN DEAL WITH PEOPLE IN A MUCH DEEPER WAY. THERE IS HUMILITY HE LEARNED FROM THAT. IT’S NOT EASY TO SEE MR. TRUMP HAS. I WAS THINKING ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON. HE CAME TO HIS INAUGURATION. AND HE HE SAID HE’S FEELING LIKE HE’S GOING TO HIS EXECUTION. SAYING DO I HAVE THE POLITICAL SKILL AND ABILITY TO DEAL WITH THE OCEAN OF DIFFICULTIES I’M GOING TO FACE? AND I’M RESTING MY NAME AND OUR COUNTRY’S NAME ON ME. AND HE SAID WHAT I CAN PROMISE IS INTEGRITY AND FIRMNESS. AND THIS IS A HUGE JOB. HUGE. >> I TRIED TO — WHEN TEMPERAMENT GAME A BIG ISSUE, I WAS TRYING TO SEIZE OUT WHAT DO WE MEAN BY THAT? I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE ABILITY TO ADMIT A MISTAKE. I DON’T HAVE NUCLEAR CODES WHICH IS GOOD. BUT JOHN KENNEDY HAD TO DESCRIBE HOW THIS IS TAKING PLACE.

YOU CAN’T JUST LET JOINT CHIEFS AND CIA COME IN AT YOU. IN 1962 — >> 13 DAYS. >> EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL IS THE DIRECT RESULT OF THE BAY OF PIGS. DISASTER, APRIL ’61, SALVATION, OCTOBER, 1962. THE NIGHT THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS ENDED JACK KENNEDY SAID TO MRS. KENNEDY I GUESS THIS IS THE NIGHT I SHOULD GO TO THE THEATER BECAUSE IT WILL NEVER GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS. IT’S HEART BREAKING. BUT THAT WAS A LEVEL OF HUMILITY. ADMITTING A MISTAKE. ANOTHER, I BELIEF IS EMPATHY. WHEN IT’S YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENT ON THE HILL OR LEADER OVERSEAS. GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, ONE OF THE MOST EMPATHETIC MEN WHO EVER DREW BREATH, ONE OF THE REASONS THE COLD WAR ENDED PEACEABLY IS WHEN THE BERLIN WALL FELL, DESPITE WHAT GEORGE MITCHELL IN THE SENATE WANTED TO DO, GEORGE BUSH WAS NOT GOING TO GO TO BERLIN, AND AS HE PUT IT DANCE ON THE WALL. HE SAID I DIDN’T WANT TO STICK IT IN GORBACHEV’S EAR. I THINK HE MEANT EYE. HE KNEW IF AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT SHOWED UP AT THE DOOR STEP AND DECLARED VICTORY HE PLAYED A POLITICAL COST. WHEN HE HAD A COOKIE OR CANDY BAR, HE WOULD CUT IT IN HALF AND GIVE IT TO THE OTHER KID. THERE IS A DIRECT LINE. >> FOR SOME PEOPLE, EMPATHY IS INBORN. WHEN I THINK ABOUT LINCOLN AS A LITTLE KID WHEN OTHER KIDS WOULD BE PUTTING HOT COALS ON TURTLES AND LOVING TO SEE THEM JUMP AROUND, HE NOT ONLY COULDN’T BEAR IT, BUT HE WROTE AN ESSAY IN SCHOOL ABOUT WHY IT WAS WRONG. HE WAS FEELING EMPATHETIC TOWARDS A TURTLE, THEN, YOU THINK ABOUT THE GREAT SECOND INAUGURAL, THE IDEA IS EMPATHY, UNDERSTANDING NO MESSAGES HE’S HE DELIVERING DESPITE THE FACT THE WAR IS COMING TO AN END. HE KNOWS THE TASK IS TO BRING THE SOUTH BACK INTO THE UNION. REACHING OUT TO THE SOUTH AND TEDDY ROOSEVELT ONCE SAID WITHOUT FELLOW FEELINGS HE WENT TO THE SLUMS, WALKING AROUND AS A POLICE COMMISSIONER TO SEE WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO LIVE IN A SLUM. HE SAID IT BECOMES NATURAL AFTER HIS WIFE AND MOTHER DIED ON THE SAME DAY IN THE SAME HOUSE, HE LEARNED WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A COWBOY AND RANCHER AND SAID WITHOUT FELLOW FEELING A DEMOCRACY IS NOT GOING TO WORK AND PEOPLE SEEING OTHER THAT IS WHERE I FEAR WE’RE AT NOW. WHAT PREVENTED DEMOCRATS, PERHAPS, FROM UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP WERE FEELING IS THAT THEY HADN’T HAD CONNECTION WAS PEOPLE WHO FELT LIKE WAS PASSING THEM BY. NOW, PEOPLE HAPPY ARE NOT FEELING THE SAME SENSE OF EMPATHY TOWARDS THE PEOPLE THAT LOST. THAT IS A WHAT WE HAVE TO FEEL. THERE WAS AN ARTICLE THE OTHER DAY IN A BOSTON MAGAZINE. I COME FROM NEW ENGLAND AND PROBABLY DO THINK OF MYSELF AS LIBERAL THAT SAID 28-1 ARE LIBERALS TO CONSERVATIVES IN

COLLEGES AND SCHOOLS IN NEW ENGLAND AND THAT KIDS WHO ARE CONSERVATIVES IN SCHOOLS, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE TO STAY IN THE CLOSET AND NOT COME OUZ — OUT. AND SOMETIMES, PROFESSORS ARE MAKING FUN OF TRUMP. IF IT STARTS AT THAT LEVEL, THEN WE CAN’T EXPECT LEADERSHIP TO DO IT AT THE TOP. >> SO, JOHN? >> 28 YEARS AGO YESTERDAY WHEN BUSH 41 OPENED WITH A PRAYER HE’D WRITTEN HIMSELF ON SOME CARDS. IT BASICALLY SAID HELP US, LORD. TO USE POWER TO HELP OURSELVES BUT ENABLE US TO USE POWER TO HELP PEOPLE. NOT TO MAKE A GREAT SHOW IN THE WORLD. THERE IS A LEVEL OF A KIND OF DECENCY THERE THAT WE’RE SEEING EXPRESSED THERE. WE CAN DO MORE, I THINK OF THE KINDER AND GENTLER RHETORIC. ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW WASHINGTON IS OUT OF TOUCH. I THINK IT’S OPPOSITE PROBABLY. WASHINGTON IS TOO MUCH A MIRROR. IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY TO ANSWER WHAT ST. AUGUSTINE, YOU HAVEN’T HAD ST. AUGUSTINE THROWN AT YOU SATURDAY NIGHT IN A WHILE. I HOPE. BUT IT’S IN THE CITY OF GOD. HE SAYS A BEING UNITED BY THE COMMON OBJECTS OF THEIR LOVE. >> DO THEY HAVE TO BE RATIONAL? >> YES. UNITED BY COMMON OBJECTS OF THEIR LOVE. WE HAVE TO ASK WHAT DO WE LOVE IN COMMON? WE BELIEVE WHAT WE WANT. AND THE TRIUMPH OF OPINION OF FACT IS ONE OF THE MOST CORROSIVE THING. >> I WAS TALKING WITH A SENATOR, THEY FEEL THE SENATE IS A DYSFUNCTIONAL BODY. THE REASON IS THAT HE SAID WE ARGUE OVER THE SOLUTION WE DON’T AGREE WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE. >> RIGHT. >> YOU’RE SAYING THAT IS A REFLECTION OF THE COUNTRY. >> WHAT MAKES THAT MORE TROUBLING, TOO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE CONGRESS MANY KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO HAVE TO GO ACROSS RACE AND LINES TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING TOGETHER AS A GROUP. NOW, THAT LACK OF A COMMON MISSION IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN WASHINGTON. MY SON, JOE, I PROBABLY TALKED ABOUT LAST TIME I WAS HERE. PROBABLY NOT. AFTER SEPTEMBER 11TH HE JUST GRADUATED FROM HARVARD IN HISTORY AND HE WAS IN BAGHDAD AND GOT A BRONZE STAR, SENT BACK TO AFGHANISTAN, CAME OUT, DELAYING GOING TO HARVARD LAW SCHOOL 10 YEARS SAYING HE WOULD NEVER CHANGE IT FOR ANYTHING. NOTHING MADE HIM PROUDER THAN BEING WITH 26 KIDS IN THAT PLATOON. HE’S VERY MUCH ARGUING FOR A SORT OF NATIONAL SERVICE SO YOUNG PEOPLE CAN EXPERIENCE THAT CONNECTION WITH ONE ANOTHER AND THAT SENSE OF A COMMON MISSION. >> THAT IS RIGHT. >> WHEN JOHN KERRY FIRST GAME

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE IN 10, OR 11 IT WAS THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE FULLBRIGHT HEARINGS WHERE HE CAME TO NATIONAL PROMINENCE BY SAYING HOW DO YOU ASK A MAN WHO IS THE LAST MAN TO DIE FOR A MISTAKE? AND WE’RE AT A ROUGH MOMENT IN AFGHANISTAN. AND I WAS GOING TO WRITE A COLUMN TO HAVE A SET OF HEARINGS ABOUT AFGHANISTAN 10 YEARS ON. AND REALLY PUT A LOT INTO IT. MOST OF THE TIME WHEN YOU CALL A SENATOR AND SAY I THINK YOU SHOULD BE ON TV MORE, THEY’RE RECEPTIVE. JOHN SAID I DON’T THINK IT WOULD WORK. I SAID WHY. HE SAID BECAUSE WE’D SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ARGUING ABOUT THE BASIC, FACTUAL ASSUMPTIONS. >> WOW. >> AND I THOUGHT JESUS CHRIST. IF WE CAN’T HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT WHAT IS NOW OUR LONGEST WAR, INCLUDING THE REV SOLUTION, WHICH DORIS’S SON IS SERVING HOW CAN WE DEAL WITH PROJECTING FORCE IN A DEMOCRATIC AND LEGITIMATE WAY? DOES ANYONE IN THIS ROOM BELIEVE THAT IF THERE WERE A SELECTIVE SERVICE DRAFT WE’D BE IN THE WARS WE’RE INVOLVED IN TODAY? >> RIGHT. RIGHT. >> ONE MORE QUESTION TO YOU. IN THE DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION, I WAS TALKING WITH A GUY I BELIEVE WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THE RESULTS. AND THIS MANNING SAYING WE’D LIKE TO IMAGINE PROGRESS CONTINUES AND WE’RE MOVING FORWARD AND THAT WE’RE IMPROVING A LITTLE BIT. HE SAID SOMETIMES, MAN KIND GOES BACK. LEAPS BACK IN TIME. AND WE DO HAVE A MOMENT IN WHICH A PRESIDENT IS BEING RELEASED BY ANOTHER PRESIDENT WHOSE STARTING POINT FOR NEGOTIATION IS THAT I WANT TO UNDO EVERYTHING DONE. LET’S GO BACK EIGHT YEARS AND HAVE THOSE DEBATES. DO YOU THINK PROGRESS DISCONTINUE FORWARD? THAT MARTIN LUTHER KING IS RIGHT ABOUT THE ARC OF JUSTICE BEING LONG BUT MOVING TOWARDS JUSTICE, OR DO WE SOMETIMES TAKE A LEAP BACKWARD? INTO DARKNESS. >> I THINK IT’S GIVEN HIM A CERTAIN KIND OF STABILITY LEAVING THIS OFFICE. WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, THIS SUMMER, EVERYTHING LOOKED MORE POSITIVE IN A SENSE OF WHAT HIS LEGACY WAS GOING TO BE. HEALTH CARE WOULD BE THERE AND ONE IMAGINES SOME OF THE THINGS PUT FORWARD HE’D BE REMEMBERED FOR AND YET HE HASN’T LOST HIS SPIRIT. BECAUSE HE HAS THAT PHILOSOPHY, SOCIETY, PEOPLE, THEY SOMETIMES SXAG ZAG. THERE IS A MOVE IN AMERICA TOWARDS GREATER PROGRESS. LOOKING AT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE INNER CITIES IT LOOKED LIKE WE’RE BACK, WAY BACK, SO MUCH PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THEIR LAST 15 YEARS AND 20 YEARS AND 30 YEARS. THAT WE FORGET SOMETIMES. THAT IS PART OF THE ODDNESS OF THE ELECTION F LISTENING TO WHAT MR. TRUMP IS SAYING, THE PEOPLE LEFT BEHIND BY MANUFACTURING AND WHO FEEL THEY LOST THEIR SENSE

OF SELF ESTEEM, THEY NEED SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THE COUNTRY IS BETTER NOW. YOU WOULD THINK IT HAD GONE WAY DOWN HILL BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE ELECTION WAS. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT AMERICA, I THINK ABOUT THOSE DEBATES WITH STEVEN DOUGLAS. HE SAID HE THOUGHT DOUGLAS WAS TRYING TO MAKE US GO BACKWARD. HE SAID IF YOU’RE TRYING TO PERFECT THE UNION YOU’RE GOING TO BE AGHAST BETWEEN WHERE YOU WANTED TO BE F YOU KEEP MOVING TOWARD THAT, IF YOU SOMETIMES GO INTO A HORIZONTAL WAY, YOU’LL KEEP GOING THAT WAY. AND I GUESS I BELIEVE WHEN YOU LOOK AT HISTORY JUST HAVING BEEN A DODGER FAN AND RED SOX FAN FOR MANY YEARS I HAD TO BE AN OPTIMIST. IT’S A CHARACTER TRAIT. I SEE IT IN AMERICAN HISTORY AND CHARACTER. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK YANKEE FANS? >> I KNOW HOW TO LOOSE. I’M A SOUTHERNER AND CHRISTIAN. THE DUTY OF A CHRISTIAN IS NOT JUST TO SUCCEED BUT FAIL CHEERILY? THAT IS ME. THE QUESTION SR WE FALLING BACK NOW? AND CAN THERE WITH A FALL BACK? IT WAS SAID HISTORY TAKES NO LEAP EX — HISTORY LIKE NATURE KNOWS NO LEAPS, WE DON’T GO VASTLY FORWARD IN ONE MOMENT. >> OF COURSE. >> WE GO BACKWARD. SO WE DO WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING YOU KNOW ALMOST ALL GREAT MOMENTS ARE CONTINGENT. AND JFK SAID DURING CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS, GOD KNOWS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. THERE IS ALWAYS A SON OF A — THAT DOESN’T GET THE MEMO. IF ABRAHAM LINCOLN HADN’T BEEN WHERE HE WAS IN 61 WE WOULD HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT RESULT. IF LYNDON JOHNSON WASN’T WHERE HE WAS ON BLOODY SUNDAY, WE WOULD HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT RESULT. YOU NEEDED SOMEONE WHO TWO SIGNIFICANT FILL PLYINGS WERE ACTORS PROJECTING A REALITY OF THE WORLD WE COULDN’T SEE BUT WANTED TO. RONALD REAGAN AND JOHN PAUL II. THEY WERE ABLE TO HELP BRING COMMUNISM DOWN. >> YOU CAN ADD FDR TO THAT. HE THOUGHT HE WAS A GOOD OF AN ACTOR AS ORSON WELLS. >> AND HE WOULD LOOK APPROVINGLY AND SAY THAT WAS THE GARBO AT ME. >> WE DO THIS AT BAR MITZVAHS. IF YOU NEED US. WELLS ONCE SAID, SORRY. SO, YES. >> I WAS SUPPOSED TO KEEP HIM IN LINE. >> WAIT UNTIL WE GET TO FOUNDING FATHERS. >> I THINK THIS IS A — >> THIS IS A QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION. >> I THINK IT’S POSSIBLE TO FALL OFF WHAT FDR SAID, QUOTING AND SAID THE LINE OF CIVILIZATION MOVES FORWARD. I DO BELIEVE THAT. IT REQUIRES ME TO SAY DARKNESS IS ALWAYS NEARBY. THAT IS WHY WHAT YOU’RE DOING HERE, BY COMING TO LISTEN TO TALK IS SO IMPORTANT. >> COULD WE HAVE A MOMENT WHERE DIFFERENT GROUPS ARE PUSHING THEMSELVES FORWARD? MAKING THEMSELVES HEARD? FROM 2008, A DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE IN 2016. AND. >> WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT WATCHING MARCHES TODAY OF WOMEN NOT ONLY IN WASHINGTON BUT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, WAS THAT IN

CONTRAST TO THE PROTESTS THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE INAUGURATION YID, WHICH WAS RANDOM AND NOTHING THEY’RE MARCHING FOR AND IT WAS SAD, TODAY SEEMED TO ME WHATEVER YOU FEEL, IT’S VALUE VANNIZING PEOPLE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR RIGHTS NOW AND TO OPPOSE IN A REAL WAY, THEY’RE ARGUING SOME SIGNS WERE ANTITRUMP. AND I CARE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS OR ABOUT PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND SO THEY’RE ARGUING FOR GOALS. THERE WAS A SUFFICIENT RAJETT PROTEST AT WOOD ROW WILSON’S INAUGURATION. SO IF WHAT HAPPENS, AND THIS IS WHAT IS INTERESTING, IS THAT OBAMA SAID HE’S GOING TO STAY OUT OF THINGS UNLESS CERTAIN THINGS HAPPENED. AND THERE ARE OTHER ONES. AND I THINK THAT IS TRUE FOR THE COUNTRY. YOU KNOW? WE HAVE TO GIVE TRUMP A CHANCE RIGHT NOW. WE HAVE TO HOPE THAT MOMENT WILL PIVOT. AND BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THIS EXTRAORDINARY RESPONSIBILITY AND INSTEKTS WILL BE HELPED BY THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM. IF. >> ANDREW JACKSON ACCUSED HIS EEPTS OF BEING ELITIST AND OUT OF TOUCH AND IT WAS SORT OF TRUE. HIS OPPONENTS REALIZE THEY HAD NEEDED TO BE MORE DEMOCRATIC AND ORGANIZED AND JACKSON FOUND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND OPPONENTS FOUNDED THE WIG PARTY. AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO HATED ANDREW JACKSON WOULD HAVE TO BE GRATEFUL TO HIM FOR. >> I MEAN PEOPLE HAVE LITTLE TIME TODAY BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH TIME, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SPENDING ON FACEBOOK OR E-MAIL OR WHATEVER THEY’RE DOING THAT DOESN’T ALLOW THEM TO COME TOGETHER TO — THEY DID GO FROM BERNIE SANDERS BUT THEN, I’M NOT SURE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROTESTING RIGHT AFTER TRUMP WON ACTUALLY DIDN’T VOTE SOME OF THEM. PEOPLE ARE SAYING HAVE YOU VOTED AND THEY DIDN’T. IF THIS GALVANIZES MORE PEOPLE IN A WAY, THAT IS A GOOD THING THAT COULD COME OUT OF IT. >> ONE QUICKLY BECAUSE OF WHERE WE ARE, JEFFERSON’S POINT IS MAN SHOULD BE A PARTICIPANTS IN THE POLITICS OF THE STATE AND NATIONS NOT JUST ELECTIONS BUT EVERY DAY. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SO WE’RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK AND TAKE QUESTIONS. THANKS FOR JOINING US SO FAR. IT’S BEEN GREAT. REALLY APPRECIATE IT. >> RICHARD T. THINKING OF PRESIDENTS YOU PERSONALLY SPENT TIME WITH. THAT IS COOL. WE’RE ON STAGE WITH PEOPLE WHO PERSONALLY SPENT TIME WITH PRESIDENTS. DORIS CAN YOU NAME ONE CHARACTERISTIC DONALD TRUMP MIGHT SHARE WITH LBJ? >> COARSENESS. NO. LBJ HAD AN UNUSUAL WAY OF SPEAKING WHEN TALKING. IT’S NOT IN PUBLIC BUT PRIVATE. IT WAS ENTERTAINING AND SOMETIMES, WITH DONALD TRUMP IT’S INTERESTING. >> DEFINITELY INTERESTING. >> YES. NO. I MEAN, AND SHORT AND STRAIGHT FORWARD AND I DON’T KNOW WHETHER HE TELLS STORIES. THAT IS AN IMPORTANT PART, I THINK OF LEADERSHIP TO BE ABLE TO TELL STORIES AND LBJ LIKED TO ENGAGE IN HYPERBOLE. I REMEMBER, HE DIDN’T WANT TO SWIM, JUST WANTED TO TALK. SO THERE WERE RAFTS WITH FLOATING MEMO PADS. AND THAT DAY, THE PRESIDENT

MENTIONED HE HAD A GREAT, GREAT GRAND FATHER WHO DIED AT THE BATTLE OF ALAMO. HE SAID HE DIDN’T HAVE A GREAT GRANDFATHER WHO DIED AT ALAMO. HE MUST HAVE WANTED TO. I SAID HOW CAN YOU DO THAT? HE SAID THESE JOURNALISTS ARE SUCH STICKLERS FOR DETAIL. HE TELLS ME HIS GREAT GREAT GRAND FATHER DIED AT THE BATTLE OF SAN JACINTO AND HOW THAT WAS MORE IMPORTANT IN THE ALAMO UNTIL I FOUND OUT THE GUY HADN’T DIE DIED THERE, EITHER. >> CAN YOU NAME A CHARACTERISTIC DONALD TRUMP GEORGE HW BUSH? >> JESUS. I KNEW THAT WAS COMING. >> HONESTLY, NO. I’M NOT TRYING TO BE CLEVER. I BELIEVE THE MOVEMENT IN 30 YEARS FROM GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH TO DONALD TRUMP JUST PROVES DARLING. AND GEORGE BUSH PUT THE COUNTRY FIRST AS OFTEN AS HE COULD. HE WAS NOT PERFECT. HE SAID TO ME POLITICS IS NOT A PURE UNDERTAKING IF YOU WANT TO WIN. IT’S NOT. HE RAN A BRUTAL CAMPAIGN IN 1988. IN WASHINGTON HE TRIED TO CREATE A CULTURE OF COMPROMISE. OPPOSING 1964 CIVIL RIGHTS ACT IN TEXAS, UNCOMFORTABLE REALITY TO TALK ABOUT NOW. IN 1968 WHEN ACTUALLY IN CONGRESS HE VOTED FOR FAIR HOUSING. TO ME, THE DRAMA OF GEORGE WAS, IS THAT HE DID ALMOST HE HAD TO DO TO ACHIEVE POWER BUT WHEN HE ACHIEVED POWER HE DID ALMOST HE COULD TO DO THE RIGHT THING N A POLITICAL LIFE I DON’T THINK THERE IS A MUCH WARMER WAY TO LOOK AT IT. HE’S NOT A PREACHER, A PHILOSOPHER. CONSISTENCY ISN’T THE TEST FOR HIM. TO ME, IT’S EFFECTIVENESS. IT’S KIND OF MORAL CLARITY WHEN THINGS ARE DARK. BUT NO. I DON’T SEE THAT. AND THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT WORLDS IN THAT DONALD TRUMP IS A PRODUCT AND WOULD NOT BE PRESIDENT IF IT WERE NOT FOR REALITY TELEVISION. GEORGE HW BUSH, YOU KNOW, HE LIKED DANA CARVY’S IMITATION OF HIM. >> DANA SAID IT WAS EASY, MR. ROGERS TRYING TO BE JOHN WAYNE. SO HERE — HERE IS A DIFFERENCE TRUMP TWEETED TWICE FURIOUS ABOUT ALEC BALDWIN’S PORTRAYAL OF HIM IN SATURDAY NIGHT LIFE. WHEN HE LOST IN 1992, DEVASTATING PERSONAL LOSS. LISTENING TO AUDIO DIARY ENTRY IS TEAR PROVOKING. THE DEPTHS THAT IT PUT BUSH IN. HE FELT HE LET EVERYONE DOWNFUL HE WANTED TO LIFT STAFF SPIRITS. SO HE INVITED DANA CARVY TO SPEND THE NIGHT AT THE WHITE HOUSE AND PERFORM IN THE EAST ROOM. >> PERFORM GEORGE BUSH? >> YEAH. ONE GUY ATTACKING ALEC BALDWIN, THE OTHER GUY INVITED HIS ALEC BALDWIN TO COME TO THE WHITE HOUSE. >> DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN TRUMP’S AMERICA FIRST APPROACH AND ISOLATIONISM AFTER WORLD WAR I? >> THERE IS A SIMILARITY OF LANGUAGE BECAUSE CHARLES LINDBERGH USE THAT HAD PHRASE, AMERICA FIRST. >> I THINK SO. BRIEFLY. THE ICE SOLATION. >> IT WAS A TARIFF PASSED. >> PEOPLE ARE WITH ME. OKAY? THEY DON’T THINK IT’S A COCKTAIL. >> EXACTLY.

DOUBLE. >> RADIO GUYS. THEY TALK A LOT. >> THE NEUTRALITY ACTS WHICH FDR HAD TO FIGHT STARTING WITH WHO DESTROYED THE DEAL IN 40 AND THEN, 41 IS AL FOR PEACE. AND REMEMBER, PERSONAL OBSESSION OF MINE, WE DID NOT DECLARE WAR ON NAZI GERMANY ON THE 8TH OF DECEMBER, 1941. >> TRUE. >> WE WAITED UNTIL HITLER DECLARED WAR ON US ON THURSDAY, THE 11TH. AND WE DECLARED ON THE 12TH. ROOSEVELT WAS WORRIED THAT AMERICA FIRST WAS DEAD IN THE PACIFIC BUT NOT YET DEAD IN THE EUROPEAN WAR. SO THERE IS A FEAR THAT WEEK. OF COURSE FDR, CHURCH HILL CAME AND THEY HAD CHRISTMAS TOGETHER. >> I THINK THE WORRY SOME THING ABOUT THE RESEARCH OF NATIONALISM WHICH IS PART OF THE THING IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THEIR OWN INTERESTS. WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH ALLIANCES? WHAT CAME OUT OF WORLD WAR II AFTER EXPERIENCE ROOSEVELT HAD HAD TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT AMERICA FIRST. THE EXPERIENCE OF WORLD WAR I HAD BEEN TRAUMATIC AND A WAR FOUGHT AND NOBODY UNDERSTOOD WHAT IT HAD BEEN FOUGHT FOR. SO THERE WAS A REASON THEY FELT THAT. THINGS WERE HAPPENING EUROPE THAT HAD TO BE DEALT WITH. IF THERE WAS A WAR IT WAS WORLD WAR II. WE LOST YEARS OF PREPARATION. WHATS OUT IS THE UNITED NATIONS, NATO AND THAT IS WHAT MADE AMERICA THE WORLD LEADER WE BECAME. IF WE UNDO THOSE ALLIANCES AGAIN, I DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO AMERICA’S LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD. >> THAT IS NOT JUST ISOLATIONISM. AND THE PRESIDENT. THE PRESIDENT SAID AND PART OF THAT IS THE NATIONALISM DORIS IS TALKING ABOUT. WHAT LED TO SECOND WORLD WAR WAS THE CRASH AND PRESSURES HERE THAT WAS THE RISE OF NATIONALISM THAT EMPIRES BROKE UP. AFTER WORLD WAR I. AND THIS GOES BACK TO HISTORY DOESN’T REPEAT ITSELF, BUT DOES RHYME. >> THAT IS ONE OF THE GREAT COMMENTS I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY MEAN. >> DON’T YOU THINK M TRUMP RESTRAINED BY THE SYSTEM? >> HASN’T HOPED SO FAR. THE GREAT HOPE IS THAT MAD SONNIN DOES IT. >> HE’S GOING TO GO OFF NOW. >> THAT IS THE HOPE. BUT YOU KNOW, SINCE TR, REALLY, LINCOLN, THERE IS LINE OF JACKSON AND LINCOLN, TR, FDR. PRESIDENCY HAS BECOME WHAT IS KENNEDY’S PHRASE, VITAL CENTER OF ACTION. IT’S THE CENTER OF OUR CONSCIOUSNESS. OF OUR CULTURE. IN A WAY. I HOPE ARTICLE 1, 2, 3 WILL DO WHAT THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO DO. BUT WE HAVE A SYSTEM IN WASHINGTON NOW WHERE THERE IS A LIVE DEBATE THAT YOU SHOULD LEAVE THE SUPREME COURT. >> BY FILIBUSTERING ANY NOMINEE. >> MY VIEW IS THAT IT’S BETTER BECAUSE WE HAVEN’T TALKED ABOUT THIS ENOUGH.

THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY OF 1789. >> I HOPE YOU HAVE SLEEPING BAGS. >> I WONNEDER IF THAT FIRST QUESTIONER IS BACK FROM THE WAR. WE HAD 6, 7, 10, THEN NINE. MY POINT IS THAT IT’S A SYSTEM THAT IS ALREADY IN DEEP CORROSION. IT’S NOT FUNCTIONING EVEN BEFORE THIS GUY GOT TO TOWN. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> I BY PART OF THE DIFFICULTY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THAT YOU CAN FIRE PEOPLE, YOU CAN GIVE VOICES TO PEOPLE WHO DO WELL. I THINK HE’S GOING TO COME UP AGAIN, ISN’T THERE A SAYING THEY SAID HE WAS A SAD MAN? AS A MILITARY LEADER HE CAN GIVE ORDERS? THAT IS NOT RIGHT? >> SHURM ONSAID FOR ICE. >> IT WASN’T TRUE. >> THERE IS SOME STORY THAT TRUMAN LOVES TO TELL HE’S GOING TO WE CAN SEE PEOPLE GOING AND ICEN HOWER SAYS TO TRUMAN, I WAS AFRAID I WOULD OUTSHINE YOU. AND TRUMAN SAID YOU DIDN’T COME BECAUSE I DIDN’T INVITE YOU. >> DO YOU THINK THERE HAS BEEN A PRESIDENT THAT BROUGHT DISRUPTION AND CHANGE OF DIRECTION LIKE MR. TREFRP? >> IF ARGUE, YOU’VE HAD OPPRESSION IN ALMOST AT ROCK ROCK BOTTOM AND THE IDEA HAD STIFLED HERBERT HOOVER WHO WAS A GOOD MAN, I THINK, HE DIDN’T BELIEVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD AND COULD HAVE A ROLL SO IT WAS A REAP AND FDR CHANGED THE SYSTEM. MADE GOVERNMENT AN ACTIVE PLAYER, THEN, YOU CAN ARGUE REAGAN CAME IN ARGUING GOVERNMENT WAS THE PROBLEM NOT THE SOLUTION. SO IT MEANS A RANGE. THE RIN PARTY HAD BEEN THE PRO BUSINESS, POLITICAL BOSS PARTY. AND TEDDY SAW DANGERS WHERE MONOPOLYS WERE BEING BUILT UP BY LARGER COMPANIES AND SO WE CERTAINLY HAVE SEEN IT. >> WHAT ABOUT ANDREW JACKSON? WAS HE A DISRUPTER? >> WELL, YES. IT WAS ALMOST MORE IN STYLE THAN IN SUBSTANCE. THAT WE THROUGH HIM OFF. AS YOU KNOW. PEOPLE THINK HE CLEANED OUT THE BUREAUCRACY. HE DID IT WITH SKILL AND CARE. THE BANK WAS NOT LIKE A FEDERAL RESERVE. THE BANK OF THE UNITED STATES TOOK TAXPAYERS DEPOSITS AND KEPT MEMBERS ON RETAINER SO HE WASN’T TOO FAR OFF. I WOULD SAY 1801. JEFFERSON CALLED IT THE REVOLUTION OF 1800. IT WAS IN THE HOUSE.

AND BURR HAD THE SAME NUMBER OF ELECTORAL VOTES. WHAT MILTON SAID HE’S SOMEONE NOT GOING TO TEAR EVERYTHING UP. AND THAT IS WHAT IS ABOUT THIS. IT’S LIKE “NEW YORK TIMES” NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE WORD UNPRECEDENTED ON THE GROUNDS OF EVERYTHING ULTIMATELY UNPRECEDENTED. WE DON’T KNOW HOW MUCH BOMBASTIC, ODDLY TEMPER MENTAL CHALLENGING VERNACULAR OF TRUMP’S CANDIDACY UNTIL YESTERDAY, THIS AFTERNOON, IS GOING TO ATTEMPT TO TRANSLATE INTO DELIBERATENESS. >> SOMEONE QUESTIONED HIM ABOUT THE FACT IN THE HEARINGS, HAD DISAGREED BUT THEY DID. HE TWEETED GREAT JOB, EVERYBODY. NOW, SO THERE MAY BE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIS UPSETMENT WHEN IT’S A PERSONAL ATTACK ON HIM, VERSES ATTACK ON HIS IDEAS WHICH MEANS WE MAY IN THE KNOW WHAT IDEAS HE REALLY HOLDS DEAR. THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO FIND OUT TO SEE IF WE CAN MAKE THAT DISTINCTION. >> I HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT A BUST OF THEODORE ROOSEVELT PUT IN THE OVAL OFFICE. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE? >> I COULD SEE WHY. >> A MANLY MAN. A MAN WHO SPOKE IN SHORT, PUNCHY LANGUAGE THAT THE PEOPLE LOVED. HE CAME TO THE PRESIDENTSY IN A TIME WHEN THE MEDIA WAS RIPE FOR HIM. THAT IS WHAT IS INTERESTING. LINCOLN WAS LUCKY TO HAVE HIS SPEECHES REPRINTED IN FULL. TEDDY IS THE PERFECT CHARACTER, I MEAN, A CARTOON CHARACTER AND SAYS FUN THINGS. THE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT I’M SAYING. HE SAID SPEAK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK. HE GAVE MAXWELL HOUSE THE SLOGAN “GOOD TO THE VERY LAST DROP”. HE WAS A FIGHTER AND FOUGHT THE ESTABLISHMENT. ONE OF TRUMP’S ADVISOR S WAS LIKENING THIS SITUATION TO THE SITUATION OF 20TH CENTURY. SO HE WAS SAYING IT’S GOING TO TAKE A WHILE TO GET THE ECONOMY MOVING INTO THAT DIRECTION. THEY’D BE INTERESTING CHARACTERS EXCEPT TEDDY WAS ABLE TO CHANNEL THAT ENERGY INTO MODERATE AND RATIONAL ACTION. THE THINGS HE DID, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS ABLE TO PUSH THEM ALONG. THAT IS HOW HE HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP FROM THE PRESS. THEY WERE NECESSARY TO SHOW CONDITIONS SO PEOPLE WOULD UNDERSTAND WHY THINGS HAD TO CHANGE. >> HE WANTED PEOPLE TO INVESTIGATE YOU AND AGENCIES UNDER HIS CONTROL? >> ABSOLUTELY. >> IF YOU FIND SOMETHING TRUTHFUL ARE YOU CONCERNED ON THE PRESS OR ACCESS MIGHT BE SHUT DOWN? >> EVERYONE HERE IS A MEMBER OF THE MEDIA. IF YOU HAVE A SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT YOU HAVE CAPACITY TO SPEAK TO THE WORLD. IF WHAT YOU HAS TO SAY DRAW AS TENSION, IT COULD REACH AS MANY PEOPLE AS WALTER CRONKITE.

AND TO SOME EXTENT, 20TH CENTURY AS VIEW OF THE PRESS AS A NEUTRAL SEEMING ORGAN IS A PRODUCT OF THE ERA. IN ONE REASON, 40 PAPERS HAD OTHER POSSIBLE PARTY AFFILIATION. IF HE HAD A BUSINESS MODEL THAT BECAME MORE CENTRAL. I THINK SO CALLED PRESS CONFERENCES STARTED BACK AT MARAHGO AND TWO WEEKS AGO, I GUESS HAD MORE IN COMMON WITH INFOMERCIALS. SUPPORTERS WERE CLAPPING. THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDS IT SEEMS WHAT PRESIDENTS SHOULD DO. >> PRESIDENTS NEED PRESS CONFERENCES TO KEEP THEM HONEST WITH THEMSELVES. AND THE PRESS IS ASKING QUESTIONS AND TEDDY IS BUMPING AROUND. HE UNDERSTOOD THAT, HE SAID THEY’RE GOING TO CRITICIZE HIM AND THERE ARE CHANNELS AND HE SAID HE PLACED HIMSELF IN THE MIDDLE OF EVERY ACTION IN EVERY BATTLE OF THE WAR AND SHOULD HAVE CALLED IT ALONE IN CUBA. THIS IS A FAMOUS JOURNALIST. HE WRITES THEM A LETTER AND SAYS I REGRET TO TELL YOU MY WIFE AND CHILDREN ADORED YOUR TITLE FOR MY BOOK. NOW, YOU OWE ME SOMETHING. COME VISIT ME. I HAVE WANTED TO ME YOU. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE YOU NEED THEM, THEY NEED YOU. >> IN 1992, PAT BUCHANAN GETTING 40% OF THE VOTE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE. WE FORGET THIS. RUSH LIMBAUGH WAS KILLING BUSH. LIMBAUGH HAD GONE NATIONAL IN 88. REALLY BIG BY 92. BUSH AND ROGER ALES TO BROKER A MEETING. HE CARRIES LIND BAU’S BAG UPSTAIRS TO THE LINCOLN BEDROOM. AND SPENDS THE EVENING WITH HIM. AND. >> YOU MADE A GAFFE. YOU’RE IN THE LINCOLN BEDROOM AND HE SPENDS THE EVENING WITH HIM? >> DORIS? YOU ARE A NEW ENGLAND LIBERAL. I AM A POOR BOY FROM TEXAS. I AM MORE OPEN MINDED THAN YOU. [ LAUGHTER “AS OUR FRIEND TIM RUSSERT USED TO SAY WHAT A COUNTRY.” >> USA. DID WE HAVE A CONVERSATION? I CAN’T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS. ARE YOU MAKING A POINT? >> OH. OH. ANOTHER POINT. YES. AS SOMEONE WHO SLEEPS WITH A SPEECH WRITER. >> YOU STARTED IT. BILL SAPPHIRE USED TO SAY THE STATE OF THE UNION IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO GET FEDERAL AGENCIES TO DECIDE ANYTHING. >> IT’S TRUE. >> THE PRESIDENT HAD TO HAVE SOMETHING TO ANNOUNCE. SO THE SPEECH FORCED BUREAUCRATIC CLARITY. >> RIGHT. >> THIS IS EXCITING. >> I’M DOING DOLLY AND JAMES MADISON. >> IS THAT GREAT?

>> WHAT I WANT TO DO IS MADISON HAS BEEN LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY OVERSHADOWED. HE’S A LITTLE GUY. ABOUT 54 AS YOU KNOW FROM ORANGE COUNTY. AND LOST BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND HAMILTON AND JEFFERSON. ALL HAVE BEEN REDISCOVERED AND CELEBRATED RIGHTLY. BASICALLY DROVE OPPOSITION PARTY OUT OF BUSINESS. AND SO I WANT TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT KIND OF A POLITICIAN. HOW DID HE PROJECT ENOUGH SENSE OF CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY TO BE PART OF THAT VIRGINIA DYNASTY? AND TO SHAPE, ONE WAR, HE VERY MUCH WANTED THE WAR OF 1812 TO BE A WAR THE REPUBLIC WOULD BE PROUD OF. AND IN DOLLARS, JUST AMAZING FUN. I’M IN HOFF WITH HER. >> IT’S SAID IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS THAT THE TALLER CANDIDATE TENDS TO WIN. DID HE RUN AGAINST SOMEONE 52? >> NO. THAT IS TYPICAL NPR SENSATIONALISM. >> SO THAT IS WHAT WE’RE KNOWN FOR? >> I KNOW IT. >> GO, GET THE CLICKS. >> I THOUGHT IT WAS “INSIDE EDITION”. >> WARNING. >> I SAID WHAT I’M WORKING ON, MAINLY CHAPPED IS THAT AFTER HAVING DONE LYNDON JOHNSON AND KENNEDYS AND FDR AND TAFT, IT’S HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHERE I GO AFTER THAT. I CAN’T GO BACK TO FILLMORE AND IT TAKES ME LONGER TO WRITE THE BOOK ABOUT WORLD WAR II THAN THE WAR TO BE FOUGHTMENT I’M NOT SURE I CAN DO SOMETHING LIKE GEORGE WASHINGTON OR WAY BACK THERE. SO, INSTEAD. WHAT I DECIDED TO DO IS BRING MY FOUR GUYS TOGETHER. I PROMISED IT WOULD BE 350 PAGES. I FEEL LIKE IT’S EXCITING BECAUSE I WAS A ONCE UPON A TIME ACADEMIC AND I DID ANALYZE THINGS AND I LOVED POLITICAL SCIENCE AND SO PART OF IT IS ARE TRAITS INHERITED OR DEVELOPED? I’M TAKING EACH GUIDE WHEN THEY FIRST RUN FOR OFFICE AND TRYING TO LOOK AT THEM SO THEY CAN SEE CONFUSION AND FEAR AND WE CAN IDENTIFY WITH HEM IN A WAY IT’S HARD TO IDENTIFY ONCE BECOMING PRESIDENT. AND THEY ALL WENT THROUGH SOMETHING THAT CHANGED THEM. AND FDR HAD POLIO AND LYNDON JOHNSON, SOUNDS LIKE IT’S NOT SIMILAR BUT LOST AN ELECTION FOR HIM, SEEMED LIKE THE END OF HIS LIFE. THEY COME THROUGH IT WITH A SENSE OF PURPOSE AND AMBITION IS DOUBLED. WHEN YOU GET POWER, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IT? DOES THE MAN MAKE THE TIMES OR TIME MAKE THE FAN? WE’VE BEEN LUCKY RIGHT PEOPLE SEEM TO BE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE MOST-IMPORTANT TIME.

AND LATER, WORLD WAR II. IT’S FUN. I PROMISE IT WILL BE DONE BY THE END OF THE YEAR. IF YOU DON’T SEE ME FOR A WHILE, IT WILL BE HAPPENING. >> JOHN I’M GOING TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD. IS IT TIME LIKE THIS IN THE NEWS A GOOD TIME TO WRITE ABOUT THE PAST? HE I THINK SO. THE FUTURE IS UNKNOWABLE. BUT THE PAST SHOULD GIVE HOPE. OUR STORY IS OBSTACLES OVERCOME. WE SHOULDN’T LOOK UP FROM FIGURES OF THE PAST ADORINGLY OR LOOK DOWN AND FEEL SUPERIOR TO THEM BUT LOOK THEM IN THE EYE. TAKE THEM FOR WHAT THEY WERE. AND THEN BY HUMANIZING THEM WE DON’T PUT THEM ON PEDESTALS. WE’RE ABLE TO LEARN MORE FROM THEM. IF THEY’RE AS DRIVEN BY APPETITE AND SIN, AS WE ARE, AND YET, LEFT THE COUNTRY A LITTLE BETTER THEN THE REST IS GONE, TOO. >> THANK DORIS AND JOHN. >> THIS WAS GREAT. REALLY FUN. >> WOW. >> THIS BROADCAST OF THE