Investment legend Jim Rogers on China, Technology, and Global Finance

investment legend jim rogers are better known by many chinese as the father of happy and b rogers welcome to our show this morning and we are very honored to have you not only an investment veteran who’s been consistently optimistic about china and asia but also someone who has been consistently right as well china has essentially resorted to this a very kanji way of economic rescue plan fdr resorted to the new deal isn’t the better way for the u.s to effectively use the money that’s uh printed essentially by the central bank to invest in infrastructure well that’s a very extremely good question shirley i first went to china in 1984 back to what something you said before and i was really very scared because i’d been listening to american propaganda all my life that the chinese were evil vicious bloodthirsty people i got they are not found no they’re not they’re educated cultured hard-working they save their money and they have a long culture of success china is the only country in world history that’s been had recurring periods of greatness rome was great once britain was great once egypt was great once but china’s been great three or four times china’s absolutely collapsed three or four times but every time for some reason china is at the bottom and then turns around and rises to the top of camp so when you said before i’m optimistic about china it has nothing to do with me it has to do with china you know china does this not not anybody else and that’s why i have been optimistic that’s why we moved to asia that’s why my children speak mandarin because i’m preparing them for the 21st century at the moment you know there are problems between the us and china whenever in history politicians have problems they blame foreigners and the americans are blaming china right now i don’t like it i’m an american i’m very keen on america but i do see what’s happening and in my view it’s a mistake to blame foreigners any time because foreigners usually if countries work together they raise great prosperity for each other america and china have both grown together a lot in the last 30 or 40 years and that could and should continue and i hope will eventually at the moment america’s having problems and so america is printing a lot of money as you pointed out and borrowing a lot of money which in my view is again i’m an american i i hate to see it because it’s leaving my children with a huge problem america is the largest debtor nation in the world right now surely and it’s getting higher every day by leaps and bounds it’s staggering what’s happening and my poor children who are young i don’t know how america is ever going to recover from all of this debt and all of this closing off that’s taking place so i i wish america would not do what it’s doing i wish that america if it’s going to spend money would spend money on developing infrastructure china’s spending money too you seem to be spending it better you’re spending it on infrastructure in america we’re just spending it on making sure people have jobs which is great for the people but it’s not good for the long-term growth of america i worry about america i hope that america and china work together again i hope that this closing off stops after the election and i hope that america and china continue to grow and prosper together maybe i spoke too long did i answer your question of course but uh understand infrastructure question jim of course uh rationally i think a portion of the central bank’s money that’s been printed through the system should go into infrastructure now uh huawei as a typical example has done it is not only the de facto global leader i think in 5g uh telecom equipment and telecom infrastructure but also it’s becoming sort of this uh geopolitical uh front line of uh us china competition today and so i think few people really um realize the fact that no american companies is actually in the 5g global infrastructure race and so essentially uh if the u.s blacklists far away i understand fine that’s because of competition but the u.s is essentially helping the arabs nokias and the samsungs of the world to uh edge up in this global competitive race where does america stand fundamentally in this global 5g race all together well from what i read of people i know who are knowledgeable about technology america’s behind i certainly know in many things america is behind technologically i know that 20 years ago the scandinavians were ahead of us as far as the internet is concerned on what people tell me china’s ahead huawei is head of america

and instead of competing in the economic field america is using politicians the same with tick tock i mean who cares about tick tock but america’s behind so america says they’re evil people and and we’re going to give american companies an advantage this is not the way america became a great successful and powerful nation you know but that’s the way history has always worked 100 years ago america took tech learned technology from the english and we became the most important country in the world by learning english technology and and transferring it to america america is doing the same now at least as far as the people i know who know about technology it’s because america’s behind you know in many things and america is using politicians instead of an economic playing field it’s not the way the world is supposed to work work but the world has worked that way often throughout history uh you know china produces something like 10 times as many engineers maybe 20 times as many engineers as america does every year they’re not all good engineers some of them are obviously very very good engineers so in america we need to improve our education we need to improve a lot of things so that we can compete on a level playing field i don’t like saying any of this shirley congratulations to the chinese engineers you’ve done a good job well you talked a lot about history jim essentially if we look at the long span of global history it is fundamentally technology that gives the world a major economic breakouts every time with every wave of major industrial or technological revolution so today do you think 5g you know since it’s so much in the global debates is that 5g that sort of technology you think telecommunications call it what you will internet electronics call it what you will is where we are 200 years ago it was the railroad and and the steam engine you know the british developed the steam engine at one time in the 1830s the parts of england had more machines than the whole world everybody in the whole world because they immediately jumped on technology which was machinery at the time and became a great economic powerhouse and they took the sailboats they were great sailors but the spanish and the portuguese had been the great sailors before and even the chinese except the chinese closed it down and so the english started sailing around the world with their technology and took over the world and america started copying the technology and and you know the rest of the story at the moment it’s not machinery and sailing it’s electronics or telecommunications call it what you will and for whatever reason and i’m not knowledgeable of whatever reason the chinese seem to be ahead of the rest of us i know as far as money is concerned and paying for things you know money is on the computer on the phone in china you know i tried to buy an ice cream in beijing the other day i had money i had renminbi woman couldn’t take money she wanted my phone she wanted poor woman gave me the ice cream in the end she was so embarrassed and didn’t know what so china’s way ahead of us in in many things uh congratulations and as far as i can see that’s continuing again i i don’t like it because i i’m american and i would like for america to be competitive and to keep up but it’s a fact china’s doing very well with all those thousands of engineers you produce every year well sometimes when you move to china and especially like what you said jim having to do everything on wechat it does make an american feel like moving into the the future in china in many ways but by the way surely i now have wechat i do have money on my phone and so i can buy you an ice cream if i’m in china but uh um jimmy talked about this uh the shift of global technological leadership china has recently launched this a very ambitious plan called the china standards 2035 and that’s essentially aiming for china to build uh itself into the global leadership position for the technologies of the 21st century and we have just referred to a internet of things ai including biotech and certainly including 5g and i think that is a very ambitious plan but in your view is that realistic as well well of course it’s realistic as i said you produce thousands tens hundreds of thousands of engineers every year and some of them are very small but surely everybody in the world has ambitions like this if you go to america every state has a plan to buy 2025 or 2030 to be a technological leader i travel a lot korea everywhere every nation has a plan that it wants to develop its technology and its leadership and everybody is doing all they can to just to do it

including china you know not everybody can be number one not everybody can even be in the top three you can ask me in 20 years and jim if every country is trying its best to be competitive especially in cutting edge global technologies isn’t that a uh sort of a good news it’s that’s a sense of optimism for the world isn’t it well as far as i’m gonna like i’ve read a lot of history and i know that competition is great the reason that america grew was because they had to compete with the english and they had to do it better and cheaper and we did we did it better and cheaper and the english made lots of mistakes all right i know what china’s doing is very good i hope that china doesn’t close off you know if china closes off it’s not going to be good for china it’s not going to be good for the you know you know jack ma look at the hallway 20 years ago jack ma was went into his apartment and started doing the thing with a computer nobody knew what he was talking about he had to compete he did uh look at hallway same same thing oh these guys had to compete they did and it was good for china they built gigantic success stories now america’s got some great success stories too but that’s competition that made people great not closing off closing off has never led to much progress so talking about uh some other countries particularly countries are in the center of the global geopolitical debate here and some of these uh traditional u.s allies in the atlantic west uh use huawei again as an example how persuasive you think the u.s today in the 21st century in 2020 has over its allies in terms of its economic and moral leadership clearly america is the largest economy in the world right now america has staggering amounts of money and the person with a lot of money has a lot of influence whether it’s for good or for bad you know that the english language became powerful because of england had a lot of influence it replaced the french language as the world’s international language my reading of history and the way world has always worked if you are open and if somebody comes in with something new you adopt it and then you get better and better as well like jack ma he saw this thing called the internet went into his apartment and adapted and competed and look at this rest of the story that’s what’s happened with america some of our great stories you know the automobile the germans came up with the automobile 150 years ago well henry ford took it and made it great there’s nothing wrong with that as long as you’re open and receptive to new ideas and new competition we had a horrible time in the 1930s because everybody closed off let’s hope it doesn’t happen again china has just launched the 2025 plan by 2025 there are going to be 460 million 5g connected users that’s 1.2 times of the entire population of the united states not only china is now a major first mover in the 5g infrastructure building but with that we have to see that this enormous drive for china to accumulate that china will be a first mover in uh essentially amassing the world’s uh possibly the biggest amount of data turning it into an ai superpower how would the u.s catch up and stay competitive in this race uh i i would hope that america would adjust adapt and accept new technology because if you take the new technology then your engineers whether you’re british or australian or whatever you are you will make progress too that’s the best way for the world to develop history shows it over and over again that we will all be better off i mean the railroad came along and everybody had adapted and adjusted and competed and the railroad changed the world that’s the way technology and economics and society is supposed to work so i would hope that everyone the british to use them again would say hey let’s jump on this bandwagon and do it too let’s go to china and see what they’re doing or let’s let the chinese come here america would and we would all work together we’re all going to the factories and working and who cares who makes them the best most technological progress all of us all of us will benefit if there’s technological progress instead of closing it and say we’re not going to use it because it comes from england is insane america said gosh they’re great let’s use it and we did and we competed and that’s the way countries and the world makes progress but i hope i want to get there again sure i hope china doesn’t close off too right now the indians are closing off i mean it’s unbelievable to me what the indians are doing the indians they have a lot of engineers and they should be accepting and embracing what i see signs in many

countries of people closing off you know it’s true that china is quickly closing this gap and of course that’s the world’s largest economy it’s natural to feel well a sense of urgency there rather than china coming closer to the us way of doing business and now the u.s is still saying well we need to get closer to china’s way and we need to use a hall of government approach essentially to have this state-led economic development and so for the 21st century it’s not where we are going essentially it’s uh it’s going to be heavy government intervention and heavy state-led investment for the 21st century unfortunately you happen to be right you see what’s going on in the world i just mentioned india you mentioned some of the english-speaking countries before uh people are reacting and getting defensive but surely in the 19th century everybody opened and there was international trade and capital flows flows of ideas and technology and and the world got better and better then in the 20th century after the first world war everybody closed off and you know the rest of the story we had depression we had war we had disaster in 1945 we said we’re never going to do that again and everybody started opening up and dungeon painting i mentioned him before said let’s let’s open up let’s try something new dum chow ping said you open the window you’re going to get some flies but you’re also going to get fresh air and sunshine and everybody will be better off and that’s what happened but now now you see that people are saying those other people are evil and we don’t want to compete we want to have it our way whether your way or our way or their way or their way is best doesn’t matter let everybody do it their own way take ideas from each other take advancements from each other and we all get better and better that’s the way it should be unfortunately history shows it’s not always that way sometimes people just say get rid of those foreigners they’re evil well jim i can see you have been uh mentioning this point uh a couple of times now about the the possibility of china potentially resorting to a protectionist policy as well as the u.s turning more uh trade protectionists and more economically protectionist i think that’s perhaps giving china the counter force for china to push its policy towards more self-reliance as well it’s not going to eventually lead to china towards maybe perhaps more of a economic closure some point down the road well it could it one may well be there are some things you cannot do in china that you can do in the rest of the world you know some of the internet things but i’m going to use another example right now america put sanctions on russia from russia and every morning russian farmers wake up and say thank you america thank you for the sanctions because russian agriculture is booming booming they have to because they cannot buy from america and they cannot sell to america so russian aggregate but in 10 years shirley american farmers are going to say wait a minute what happened now russia is a great agricultural power again how did this happen uh but we’re america’s forcing them to by closing off and so america russia’s becoming self-reliant independent and independent and that’s not going to be good for america in the long run well the same with closing off to chinese technology you know we’re saying go wait highway you must go away well someday always going to be totally self-reliant and america’s going to say wait a minute how did this happen what happened you know but we america like we’re making russian agriculture great we’re going to do the same thing with some techno technology we’re going to force other countries whether it’s korea or china or whoever to develop their own technology and that’s going to hurt america in the long run it always has and it will again but not necessarily as you uh refer to in the russian scenario it may not necessarily be a 100 percent bad thing i mean this sort of u.s protectionist policy for uh the target countries such as china particularly in is technology china should not close off either you know if i were china and i’m not no reason for you to listen to me when these things happen they fight for china i would say okay you do it your way we’re going to continue to open up we’re going to bring in outside technology we’re going to bring in outside ideas you do it your way if you want to we’re going to do it our way so far china has been somewhat restrained but i see signs that china might close to again everybody might wind up being totally independent 20 years from now but the world is better off if we’re all working together

instead of working independently china is going to make the domestic supply and demand economic cycle as the main killer of economic growth for uh you know leading to the fortune’s five-year plan now but uh at the same time i think that just a few days ago uh the chinese leader uh she uh himself uh has a made clear affirmation to the world that china will continue to open up although uh putting the domestic economy as the main killer of economic growth that doesn’t mean that china is going to close off but do you think that uh rationale that economic rationale makes sense that on my hand you are going to be more self-reliant than on the other hand we’re going to continue to open up but you can have it both ways yes you can open up but then you will learn from other people and you will develop your own way that’s the way the world has worked and it has been good for countries uh but you know some people say we’re opening up and at the same time they’re closing some doors over here they’re closing some windows over here as long as they open up you know and and if china accepts outside ideas outside technology outside capital you know china’s opening its capital markets for instance we’ll talk about that from it they’re open them more and more just this week they open their bond market more open markets throughout history have been good for everybody and china says they’re doing it and they are doing it in many ways i hope that they’re not also closing off but basically you are saying it’s not just u.s or china taking members every country is turning protectionist every country wants to be competitive every country is coming up with zero there will be many many different uh universes isn’t that the case how how does this decodable world really look like well the world can go either way and since 1945 most places have opened up more and more has been great for the world that great look at china i mean xiaoping took amazing steps in china and many many many people became extraordinarily successful because deng xiaoping opened up china korea look at korea korea was a disaster 50 years ago and now look at korea so it can work for everybody’s benefit which you can also close off i’m not going to give it but throughout history there have been many examples of countries that have closed off and gone into decline in 1962 burma was the richest country in asia they closed off in 1962 get rid of the forest 50 years later myanmar was the poorest country in asia as they went and closed up i mean myanmar is now opening up again but history shows it doesn’t help when you get rid of the foreigners and you throw out the foreigns and i hope that everybody says that our companies go there and learn that our companies license each other’s technology that has been good for the world throughout history jim a lot of people refer to the current state of us china relationship as a cold war 2.0 i think that you are sometimes even referring to the current in many similar ways to the 1930s which in economic terms it was much worse than the cold war period the cold war period was actually not such a bad period for a global economy and so um are we going back to the 1930s you think well there are certainly signs that we are uh you know right now there’s an election in the united states both parties have said we’re going to bash china as a way to win the election and this has always happened in history all over the world countries politicians blame the problems on foreign let’s hope that after november both parties stop bashing foreign countries but it’s not just china it’s mainly china but we bashed germany we bashed korea japan mexico you know american politicians are blaming problems on many other countries let’s hope that that stops after the election but surely there are signs that it might continue india let me go back to india and it’s the second largest country in the world india desperately needs outside capital and ideas and technology but even the indians are starting to say let’s close off that’s not good for anybody certainly uh on the topic of u.s election if there were a trump term number two would that be a tougher term for china you think well if you know what mr trump says you know what he does um chances are if he is elected and doesn’t have to worry about being re-elected that he might be more receptive to the outside world uh at times he has

been i mean you know he does used to do when he was a private citizen he used to do huge amounts of business in china and with china let’s hope that he goes back to that again there are people in washington who know that international trade and investment is good there are people who do know that the chinese have invested a lot in america there are many american jobs because of china so i would hope that when the pressures of the election are finished if mister whoever wins that then we could go back to a more rational and open society an open economy will we i don’t know you can ask me in 20 years so if i understand correctly uh if president trump were to be in the white house uh for another term there could be some actually uh some real deals on the table wouldn’t it it could have been the easier time possible i would hope so uh one problem is that you know many people in washington were very much in favor of opening up unfortunately many of those have left and the people who left with mr trump sort of the people who are saying let’s close off let’s close off so let’s hope that if there is whoever wins that people come back to washington who are in favor of opening up instead of closing if there were a level of a global uh financial crisis economic crisis that you refer to uh possibly the worst in your lifetime within that sort of monetary policy space that china has allowed today essentially gives china a a safety question if in case that you know the world does turn into a uh economic meltdown well i’m delighted you brought it up it’s good insight on your pump yes china has certainly done a less bad job if you ask me in japan they’re printing staggering amounts of money and staggering amounts of debt we in america i mean it just might i have children young children what kind of world is it going to be for them as americans because america was the largest debtor nation in the world six months ago surely since then america has added staggering amounts of debt and continues to do every day and printing a lot of money china has been less bad china has not when you still have interest rates in china china’s printed money but nothing like japan nothing like america yeah japan china has built infrastructure but nothing like what we’re doing in america so china has been less bad of what’s going on in the end of course if you ask me looking at history china is going to come out better or less bad because they haven’t printed huge amounts of money and gone deeper and deeper into debt certainly my children i’m gonna inherit a country when they’re adults which has unbelievable amounts of debt who’s gonna pay that debt i know what happened to england when they did this a hundred years ago or 90 years ago uh they went into serious decline still there but it’s nothing like what it was this china i hope that the chinese central bank continues to show restraint i hope that beijing continues to show restraint but i also hope beijing opens up if they opened up the bond market last week i hope they open everything the financial markets the stock market all markets commodity markets the currency markets uh because it will be good for china if they do so in this process of further liberalization of the financial market what would you think will be the logical first step uh in this process as uh we have seen in china’s uh reform process it’s very gradual rather than just going up for a shock therapy type of thing well it has been gradual it’s been too gradual if you ask me but i’m not chinese you know dong xiaoping said you cross the stream but one step at a time you find the rocks and you carefully cross the stream well that’s what china has been doing 2005 you started opening up the financial markets well that’s been 15 years you’re still doing it but surely if i were doing it i would this afternoon i would open up everything but i’m not chinese young child ping was smarter than i am so you’re doing it your way but i don’t this is not 1920 this is 2020. china’s extremely strong successful country i would open all your financial markets now but but surely i cannot tell beijing what to do i don’t want to tell anybody what to do i’ve written some books about japan recently explaining what they’re doing wrong but i cannot tell japan what to do i don’t want to i wish i could tell washington what to do but they don’t

nobody listens so i hope china continues and i good luck to china good luck to amer good luck to everybody who opens up of course so if let’s say hypothetically jim if we were to open up china’s uh interest rate regime and exchange regime all of a sudden what would be the risks you think that comes to the economy well you asked me there’s very little risk i think what beijing is afraid of is if they open the currency market the renminbi may go down and it might because a lot of people want to get their money out of china but you know what shirley there are people like me who would say i want to buy when they win china i want to put more money into china and so yes let the renminbi go down for a while let’s get some people want out there are other people who would want to get in like me i would be waiting to buy and the market would in the end i i hate to tell you but the market is smarter than all the bureaucrats in the world even in china and so you might have dislocations short term just okay but you have short-term dislocations when everything is controlled so sure let it go down and some people would be willing to buy hmm let the invisible hand it takes control but i would well done shirley well done yes perfect i would even arguably say that a weaker currency is actually good for export especially when china is under so much pressure to buy so many more u.s goods these days well of course i mean we all know that a cheapened currency makes it easier to buy things from and to sell and i mean to sell things abroad so makes it easier for farmers to buy so yes there’s an argument that would be actually good for china if the currency went down well if it goes down china surely i am going to be buying i have great confidence in the future of the renminbi during my life my children’s lifetime very interesting and jim talking about 2020 it’s actually rather interesting to watch a global capital flow uh mobilities here and so on my hand we started to see uh 2020 actually has been vibrant in terms of chinese companies getting listed in the u.s and so all of a sudden we started to see despite all these uh tensions and uh coveted my team changing everything money is money money continues to look for the risk assets safest market and economic growth opportunities isn’t it that’s what capital likes to do capital likes to find a place where it can have a good return and safety capital is pretty neutral capital doesn’t know politics and doesn’t care well they care they want safety they want to go to a place where their money is safe and where they can get a good return and at the moment many people think that certainly if you see what’s happening in hong kong any people think that china is a place like that i hope that continues and if china continues to open up there will be more money flowing into china not flowing out you know what you just said what’s happening in all the hong kong ipo market is booming people want to put their money there you talked about you are bullish on the rmb gym one of the major i think uh reform policy this year is the launch of the imminent amount i should say the south of the southern digital currency and so uh with everything uh being just piloted all across major cities in china it looks like uh it’s a pretty uh well established app these days you know all the things that we have heard about it’s uh it’s gone quite successfully and so is that sovereign digital currency a fundamental global currency gain change well taking up back to technology technology is changing money is going to be on the computer i told you before i couldn’t buy an ice cream in uh china with with money uh it’s all on the computer that is going to happen all over the world money is governments love it because they don’t have to put my money is expensive you have to print it you have to transport it you have to account for it you have to make it safe and secure no money is on the computer on the internet it’s good for governments uh and they love it so that’s going to happen worldwide and it’s going to be government money some kind of government money worldwide it will certainly be easier for capital flows if the markets are open if the markets are open so in the future we’re going to see more and more of that again i i don’t like to say it but china’s ahead of us head of america as far as putting monies on the computer ahead of most of the world every country is working on it now every central bank and nearly every central bank in the world now is working on putting its currency on the

internet and it will happen that is certainly the future having money in your pocket is going to disappear soon i mean i know they’re chinese people don’t even have wallets because everything’s on your phone you need a phone you don’t need a wallet and that’s going to continue a lot of the current mechanisms doesn’t really reflect china’s ambition or china status i think of within the global economy currently so do you think with the sovereign digital currency it is in the way going to potentially uh helping china to establish a global monetary multilateral framework essentially with the r b as a lender of resort at some point in time well yeah surely but right now the renminbi is still a blocked currency i mean if i want to buy australian dollars i just buy them you know instantly uh but you cannot do that with china and the red men because it’s still a blocked currency again this is 2020 this is not 1920 if i were china i would open it today and make it a completely convertible and freely tradable currency china will be and the renminbi may well replace the us dollar someday but surely it cannot now it’s a blocked currency if i want to buy and sell renminbi oh my gosh it’s complicated and difficult it has been opening it is opening but i would do it today if i were china you have to tell beijing don’t listen to me beijing’s doing it its way but once they do it surely once the renminbi is freely tradable and freely convertible the world is going to change dramatically many people in the world are looking for something to compete with the us dollar there is no real viable currency right now the british pound even the euro the yen nothing can really compete with the u.s dollar right now but if and when the renminbi is freely convertible the world will change dramatically that’s why my whole beijing i do it today but they don’t have to listen to me surely and they’re not going to listen to me well uh i can certainly see that the patience is uh running out a bit uh on your in the gym so i think the chinese central bank might be just taking your advice just talked about printing money is no longer sustainable and then we come into this whole global crisis do you have a timeline for it should we watch for some shoes about it at what point should the world are calling your advice who are nearing the end well surely in 2008 we the world had a big problem because of too much debt that was very high surely since 2008 debt all over the world has skyrocketed oh my gosh japan america even china even china has debt now you didn’t have much debt 20 years ago 25 years ago but even china has dead now so the next time we have a problem and we will we always have throughout history it’s going to be horrible it’s going to be it’s going to be the worst in my lifetime i’m older than you surely so it’s going to be the worst in your lifetime too because the debt everywhere is staggering staggering and we’re all going to pay a terrible price for all this money printing and borrowing and spending i don’t like saying it as i said but it’s got to happen it always has and the debt is booming it’s not going to be fun next time surely a lot of people won’t survive i hope i survive i hope my family survive it’s going to be very bad for everybody what would be the advice you give to chinese policy makers how do you prepare for this sort of crisis i would make the markets completely open and freely tradable so money can go where its best wants to go but i would also keep the debt down china has not been going as deeply into debt as japan or america or some other countries in the last year or two i would continue that policy i would continue to try to keep the debt under control and i would make the currency convert markets open and convert very simple policy china has a strong economy now surely of course they’re going to be problems in china too of course people will go bankrupt in china but that’s the way the world is supposed to work the world is opposed to when people fail to go bankrupt and start over so it’s going to happen in china but let it happen it’s not the end of the world china has been around a few thousand years you will survive global supply chain jim uh one of the key campaign messages of president trump is to remove a hundred thousand american jobs out of china back on shore is that global what what do you think american companies are doing today do you think american companies will follow the advice they won’t they will do it if mr trump

pays him to do it and mr trump so you know so far america cannot compete with korea or some places as far as manufacturing centers even vietnam as far as some things are concerned but if somehow another and mr trump says he will give you tax breaks well if mr trump pays you to come back of course people will come back if it’s if it’s economically viable otherwise i don’t think you’re going to see much of it i don’t think you’re going to see televisions produced in america again unless somehow another mr trump pays but if but surely if that happens that’s not good for america because in the end somebody has to pay for it and if the government pays a company to make televisions in america american citizens are going to pay for that in the end and america becomes a less competitive nation a much less competitive nation and young americans are going to have a future the same future that young british had in the 1920s a nation which is in decline relatively and that can happen should it happen of course not but create what might it happen could happen sure it’s not good but it could happen it’s not a happy scenario obviously for you to talk about uh america’s relative decline in the 21st century i don’t think so but you have been uh talking about your conviction about the the rights of the 18th century and so uh jim would any us president not only president trump any future u.s president ever accept the scenario during his or her term china overtakes the united states as the largest economy in the world china will become the largest in the economy in the world eventually not per capita that will take a long long time for china to become per capita the largest economy in the world but sure it’s happening i mean it’s a simple fact can politicians accept it every politician throughout history all over the world blames problems on foreign you blame the forest the farmers have different language different skin different food different everything so it’s easy to blame the foreigners and american politicians will blame the chinese yes china continues just like british politicians blamed americans blame their problems on american medical america did rise america did become successful but it was because of hard work and saving being innovative and that’s what’s happening in china so other people blame foreigners is it good no surely but it’s the way people are you know it’s easy to blame the foreigners well uh you have talked about uh jim you know the world it seems to be uh you know on a trend to attorney more protectionists and we have seen it uh in the 1920s and 30s and it certainly was the darkest moment i should say of the 20th century but unfortunately it seems that we are entering into that phase psychologically again but it’s necessary that we have to also recognize the fact that we’re just gonna be in here for a while before the world reconverges again but what would be the cue what would be the signal that you will be looking for that uh perhaps at that point that the world has a chance to reconverge again oh oh if if somehow american congress and the american president said all right we’re going to open everything up we’re all going to dance to tick-tock can you believe that america’s screaming about tick-tock about 17-year-old boys and girls dancing to my kids love tick tock i didn’t realize tick tock was some kind of threat to america or to india i mean this is lunacy if you ask me or your privacy what did you think it uh violated your privacy what do i care about that my daughters are watching tick tock and billy billy my daughters are on billy billy i didn’t realize this was some kind of threat to to my prosperity and privacy and safety uh no of course not if i ever see the american congress all watching tick tock in billy billy then i’ll think well maybe things are getting better again and not worse but china has to do it china has to open up too you know i said we talked before about the chinese capital market there’s no reason for the chinese capital markets to be closed there’s no reason for any chinese markets to be closed jack ma went into his apartment because the techno china was open to new technology and built a gigantic company you know 10 cent you know the names as well as i do uh hallway you know because the markets were open china needs to continue to open not close not just america everybody

and give a card of uh huawei’s founder than john fay how you think of what he’s achieved and what he’s doing in tackling this uh economic or technological sanction from the us surely as i said my 12 year old daughter knows more about technology than i do but i can see the result the whole world can see the results he has built a gigantic successful company he didn’t do it with luck he did it with hard work and and good engineers and good thinking i can i don’t know any more than that except i can see the results we all can’t he must he must be doing something right and i hope that he continues i hope that china and america and the world work together so that her way becomes even more extraordinary and even more successful unfortunately that’s not the way some politicians think but no surely ask my daughter she will tell you i said to my secretary once uh let’s get a hallway phone she said well you’re not smart enough to learn i have to teach you a whole new phone system but no i know it’s fantastic my secretary will tell you it’s fantastic my daughter would tell you it’s fantastic it takes good photos well everybody knows that but but but surely again i am the wrong person to ask about technology if my daughter weren’t at school you could ask her well you you are free so you know you’ve left the corporate world for a long time if you were today put on the chair of ninja face office and you had to run this giant global company what would you advise the company do differently what would you advise the company to do next possibly the first thing i would do for a hallway is i would resign because i’m hopeless i would know nothing about what to do to help them i would hire the best engineers i could from anywhere in the world whether it’s from american universities or india wherever they are i would hire the best engineers i could and say do it do it do it do it no matter how crazy your ideas are try it and we will try it because many of them would fail but i know in the world of history shows some of those crazy people could come up with astonishing new ideas and build even more astonishing companies but i would go to the beach and i would get out of the way i would just say are the smartest nuttiest engineers you can and let them do what they want well i think i should give jim some opportunities to go to the beach now and learn learned much from you and your insides thank you so much for this opportunity certainly it’s my pleasure i’m a fan of you i’m a plant of hallway i’m a fan of china i’m also a fan of america i hope that we all become more prosperous together in the future absolutely that note thank you so much you